Uni indirectly discriminating

[Watermelonsugarhi]

Just came on here to rant. I'm a mature student (30s) and also a lone parent. I opted to do a gender module and they ironically put that module outside of childcare hours, 4.30pm-6.30pm.

No one would listen to me and I was not taken seriously until i got advise from the equality advisory service. They advised I was being indirectly discriminated against because of my sex.
They gave me a template letter to fill out stating that the uni has a duty to follow the Equalities Act 2010 and not discriminate.

Well ever since i've sent it, a rocket has gone up their bum and suddenly they can change the times of the module. I also received a big apology.

Why did it have to come to sending a stern letter quoting the equalities act for them to do something. It makes me so so angry. The Uni claims its all inclusive but actually they don't think about mature students especially parents.

Yes, especially as the timing was apparently announced a while ago. So you've screwed over working women who managed to change their hours, women who managed to get their ex to rearrange contact times, women who paid for wraparound care at school, women who have jobs within school hours.

Are Unis only allowed to run courses from 9:30am until 2:30pm to accomodate the school run?

@Watermelonsugarhi

Christ it started with well done and now apparently I'm selfish for sticking up for myself to be able to access a module that is outside of regular childcare times.

No, look you've got a good result for you, and you're clearly committed to both your course and women's issues. And your uni has kow-towed so their choice.

But I personally am very uncomfortable with the gloating nature of your OP because I don't see it as a result for women or the timetabling as discriminatory.

Oh can people stop with these imaginary other women who are apparently all now doomed. It's just invented nonsense to beat the OP about the head with.

The university recognised it was indirect discrimination, correctly. They made changes to make that element of the course more accessible to women with childcare responsibilities. That's a great outcome so well done @Watermelonsugarhi for bringing it to their attention. It might also make them consider access issues for different types of students in the future too.

University students should not expect to be able to access every single module, for most people there will be modules that just are not possible due to scheduling constraints.

I teach mature students, I see all their different scenarios, it is just unfortunate that they cannot be available for every module because of their circumstances.

So yes, I do think it's rather self-absorbed to demand that a module be rescheduled because it doesn't fit your own personal circumstances. It is not a given that every woman or even every single mum cannot attend at that time.

@AssassinatedBeauty

Oh can people stop with these imaginary other women who are apparently all now doomed. It's just invented nonsense to beat the OP about the head with.

The university recognised it was indirect discrimination, correctly. They made changes to make that element of the course more accessible to women with childcare responsibilities. That's a great outcome so well done @Watermelonsugarhi for bringing it to their attention. It might also make them consider access issues for different types of students in the future too.

How do you know they're imaginary?

As I said, I teach mainly mature students. In any given class, there are a wide range of situations. When the timetables are released, most of our students have to quickly make some work or childcare or family adjustments around their schedule. So yes, the time being changed a week later is bound to affect people.

I would be happier if the OP said the lecturer emailed everyone and made sure no one objected to the time change, but it doesn't seem to have even occurred to the OP that she might have made things difficult for other people. Including other women!

For all you know, the change to this one module's timing to be within normal childcare hours may well be helpful to other students. Mature or otherwise. The OP isn't doing an evening class, and there shouldn't be an assumption made by the university that everyone is equally able to attend sessions that extend into the evening.

Do you really think the university would have made these changes if they didn't have to and they were able to defend themselves in respect to a query about indirect discrimination??

Do you really think the university would have made these changes if they didn't have to and they were able to defend themselves in respect to a query about indirect discrimination??

Honestly? Yes. For an easy way out which doesn't mean they have to pay a solicitor and risk a court case. Few unis can afford that at the moment.

@Watermelonsugarhi

Christ it started with well done and now apparently I'm selfish for sticking up for myself to be able to access a module that is outside of regular childcare times.

Don't worry about it. The original slot was probably the latest one, you haven't disadvantaged anyone

And if it was that disruptive the uni might have offered an alternative, as a compromise. It's fine

It actually sounds like the university timetable for all full time day courses doesn’t take into account standard childcare hours if classes are scheduled into the evening.

After school clubs and childminding services generally cease at 6pm.

I’ve studied in several places , and unless attending a ‘night’ class, I haven’t had a timetable that required me to attend after 5pm.

These hours sound like they suit the institutions own staffing availability and subsequent timetables, rather than the students.

@Watermelonsugarhi

Christ it started with well done and now apparently I'm selfish for sticking up for myself to be able to access a module that is outside of regular childcare times.

OP, there are only three posters who are bitching (loudly and repeatedly) about this. And, ironically, they are doing so on the feminism board. 🙄

I’d like to point out that universities are very large places and timetabling conflicts are common. The university must not directly or indirectly discriminate against any one group. In this case, that could mean that they offer more electives in one term so that the only choice isn’t one that isn’t possible due to childcare or, as they have done, change the time.

There is no doubt in my mind that the university did what was easiest for them in order to comply with the law.

OP, please don’t doubt yourself. I’m pleased you got the outcome you wanted.

I don't know, surely almost all university courses can include evening classes?

How is this different from working in an industry that involves shift work or being on call?

You have to get childcare that covers the hours that you are working like the rest of the world.

There are probably women who want courses in the evening because they are better times for them, when they can get away from home and childcare.

EqualitY Act.

Twitch.

Yes it's indirectly going to impact those with children.
And the people who generally are in a situation where they have childcare responsibilities and options to cover them would be difficult/ unaffordable etc. Are women.

Indirect discrimination literally means something that seems neutral but in practice disproportionately impacts a group that have a protected characteristic.

Good for you OP.

In standard higher education IE not OU or lots of mature students. It is generally not on the radar at all as the vast majority of students are young no kids.

You did a good thing and well done!

And for info for some on the thread who seem uniformed-

'Protected characteristics

These are age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation.'

'Indirect discrimination happens when there is a policy that applies in the same way for everybody but disadvantages a group of people who share a protected characteristic, and you are disadvantaged as part of this group. If this happens, the person or organisation applying the policy must show that there is a good reason for it.

A ‘policy’ can include a practice, a rule or an arrangement.

It makes no difference whether anyone intended the policy to disadvantage you or not. '

I see something thinks education is a service. As opposed to a right. One which is beneficial for both individuals and society.

Yes higher education is not universal.

But the idea that it should be the same as. We only deliver washing machines on Tuesdays between 9 and 11. Can't do it?. Go to another shop.

Well I mean. I think education is important, enriching, valuable etc.

My washing machine is important to me but not in the same way!

Most universities have lectures in the day.

Ok it was a few years back but I don't know anyone who had evening lectures.

Many mature students do evening classes/ ou.

OP is doing bog standard uni from what I have read.

And it's a fact that the fact that not all students are 18/ 19 and don't have childcare etc simply doesn't cross their minds.

OP raised it. Uni said oh yes you're right of course.

Evening class could well interfere with jobs they have after uni. As well. I assume plenty still do that.

And yet somehow OP is a total selfish sod.

This is definitely s thread in feminism?

So instead of "indirectly discriminating" against people who can't be arsed to arrange after-hours childcare for the children they chose to have, they're now indirectly discriminating against people who work full-time during the day. Why is that better?

Also, having children by definition requires the participation of both sexes. Not providing childcare doesn't discriminate against anyone. Unless you're the Virgin Mary, those children didn't spontaneously spring into being just because you're female.

No people at a standard full time university course work full time.

Because they're at university studying full time.

No? I mean. I thought that was pretty well known.

Can't be arsed

And you really need to read the definition that our govt gives for indirect discrimination (upthread).

What about the mother who signed up for the class who works during the day, but was able to find child care for that evening? By moving the class she can no longer attend.

What about anyone else who works during the day who was thrilled to have an exciting evening course?

You may have destroyed the plans of any number of students. This isn’t standing up for women, It’s taking advantage of a loophole.

I don't understand how the issue is being viewed as people who only have childcare during the day can't now access the course.

It seems that it was a day course timetabled post enrolment/expression of interest out of ordinary childcare hours

People who work in the day and want to access it in the evening couldn't access it previously as it was only post enrolment /expression of interest that it was changed from a daytime course.

Which is important but different.

Just because someone put a thread in feminism and believes that they are correct does not mean that they are, in fact, correct.

You can apply the same logic in other ways. Who is disadvantaged by having any class at a particular time? There will always be lots of people no matter what time you choose. And a good number could tie it to parenthood, having an infant, being poor and needing to work, belonging to a marginalized racial group, belonging to a specific religious group, whatever. How that plays out in their lives will vary significantly too.

All this approach of making it an equalities issue will do is make it so that the needs and circumstances of a few students are given more weight than those of others, including many other women. It's not going to inspire them to support the legislation more generally or want to protect it.

Christ almighty.

There seems to be a massive assumption that as OP is a mature student and has children that the degree she's doing is NOT a standard full time university course as attended by loads of school leavers every year.

That assumption is VERY telling.