Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

@AlexaShutUp

If she has committed crimes, then we should put her on trial for them. I do believe that she was groomed but I still think that she has to take responsibility for any crimes that she has committed.

What I take issue with is the fact that she has been treated differently because she had a claim to dual citizenship. She was very clearly a British citizen - born and raised in the UK - and the fact that one or both of her parents happened to be born overseas in a country that happened to allow dual citizenship should not make her into some kind of second class citizen with fewer rights than anyone else. She had not even ever laid claim to her Bangladeshi citizenship.

It seems fundamentally wrong to me that someone else could have done exactly what Shamima Begum did, but they would have been treated differently if both parents had been born in the UK. Or, indeed, if both parents had been born in India or some other country that does not permit dual citizenship. It's totally random and totally unfair.

If she has done wrong, let's bring her to justice and make her do the time. Let us not discriminate against her on account of who her parents were.

Absolutely.

Also, expecting other countries to clear up our mess smacks of colonialism

And expect other countries to deal with the problems their society have created? Why do you think Bangladesh should be responsible for her?

I don’t think Bangladesh is responsible for her. British society isn’t responsible for her crimes, she is. She can face trial in Syria like all other female ISIS members in her detention camp in accordance with international law.

What I take issue with is the fact that she has been treated differently because she had a claim to dual citizenship

Dual citizens are always treated differently because the international law is different when applied to them. They have more rights and privileges than sole citizens. I can’t believe you think she is at s disadvantage being a dual citizen. She has had every advantage and stripping her of one of her citizenship merely makes her equal to most people in the world who are born with one citizenship.

@PlanDeRaccordement

That’s not true that dual citizen men ISIS fighters are being held to different standards. All other dual citizens who fought for ISIS were also stripped of their British citizenship. Look up the Beatles.

The only ones that have been allowed back to face criminal proceedings in UK are those who are only British citizens because international law forbids making a person stateless.

The difference isn’t man vs woman, but dual citizen vs sole citizen.

Yep. Any chance to shirk responsibility for British born and raised criminals. I mean why bother with taking responsibility and delivering justice when you can just force war-torn and underresourced nations to keep them. It's basically modern day penal colonies by stealth

@PlanDeRaccordement

And expect other countries to deal with the problems their society have created? Why do you think Bangladesh should be responsible for her?

I don’t think Bangladesh is responsible for her. British society isn’t responsible for her crimes, she is. She can face trial in Syria like all other female ISIS members in her detention camp in accordance with international law.

Right. So you expect a war torn and under resourced Syrian government to deal with British criminals

@PlanDeRaccordement

What I take issue with is the fact that she has been treated differently because she had a claim to dual citizenship

Dual citizens are always treated differently because the international law is different when applied to them. They have more rights and privileges than sole citizens. I can’t believe you think she is at s disadvantage being a dual citizen. She has had every advantage and stripping her of one of her citizenship merely makes her equal to most people in the world who are born with one citizenship.

Except she doesn't have dual citizenship so it's a moot point

Also, expecting other countries to clear up our mess smacks of colonialism

First, it’s not your mess. Second, it is by international law, not an iunjust expectation. After all you clear up mess of Manchester bombers yes?

Except she doesn't have dual citizenship so it's a moot point

True she lost her British citizenship so is now only Bangladeshi and they don’t want her so she’ll have to stand trial in Syria like everyone else. She’s not special.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Also, expecting other countries to clear up our mess smacks of colonialism

First, it’s not your mess. Second, it is by international law, not an iunjust expectation. After all you clear up mess of Manchester bombers yes?

Umm... you mean the British man who committed a crime in Britain? Well yes obviously But I'm not sure there was much left of him to bring to justice

Or how that supports your point

Dual citizens are always treated differently because the international law is different when applied to them. They have more rights and privileges than sole citizens. I can’t believe you think she is at s disadvantage being a dual citizen. She has had every advantage and stripping her of one of her citizenship merely makes her equal to most people in the world who are born with one citizenship.

Sorry, but that is absolute crap!

Yes, being a dual citizen can have advantages but you cannot possibly argue that her current position is equal to that of people who were born with only one citizenship when she is left with the citizenship of a country with which she only has a tenuous connection and has lost the citizenship of the country where she was born and grew up. That's ridiculous.

She never attempted to claim her Bangladeshi citizenship. She didn't have a Bangladeshi passport. It was purely an accident of birth. Are we really going down the route of saying that children born in the UK to immigrant parents are less British than their peers? I think that's a very slippery slope tbh.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Except she doesn't have dual citizenship so it's a moot point

True she lost her British citizenship so is now only Bangladeshi and they don’t want her so she’ll have to stand trial in Syria like everyone else. She’s not special.

Interesting that you feel you know better than the Bangladeshi government who it's citizens are....

Nope definitely no colonial superiority here....

Right. So you expect a war torn and under resourced Syrian government to deal with British criminals

If they're struggling for money keeping all these terrorists alive there are always options... let them decide. Don't see how it's fair she comes here, gets a slap on the wrist. That's not justice, they can have her and dish out the appropriate penalty. Same for all captured IS members.

Right. So you expect a war torn and under resourced Syrian government to deal with British criminals

She’s no longer British. And what is one more added tonthe thousands they have been dealing with since 2019. Sounds a bit racist to me that you think Syrians cant handle one extra criminal?

@undetetected

Right. So you expect a war torn and under resourced Syrian government to deal with British criminals

If they're struggling for money keeping all these terrorists alive there are always options... let them decide. Don't see how it's fair she comes here, gets a slap on the wrist. That's not justice, they can have her and dish out the appropriate penalty. Same for all captured IS members.

Oh yeah, definitely not fair the the British justice system deals with someone born and raised here.

Much fairer to export that problem.
I'm sure the Syrian population are ever so grateful you've left that decision up to them

Yes it's time to bring her back and deal with her here. Even if that means watching her closely forever.

I doubt she'll manage to get a job though

@Babdoc

OP, Begum also has Bangladeshi citizenship, through her Bangladeshi parents. If she is so desperate to get out of Syria, she can go there tomorrow. The UK is legally entitled to remove citizenship from anyone who has a dual nationality elsewhere, as Begum has.

No she doesn't. Bangladesh have said they would refuse her citizenship if she applied

Interesting that you feel you know better than the Bangladeshi government who it's citizens are....
No, Bangladesh lost the international high court case decision. It’s not my opinion.

Nope definitely no colonial superiority here....
Definitely not, no colonies in my race history.. unlike yours?

@KidneyBeans

Shouldn't be forced on them but how costly can executions be? If Syria wants her here fine, but money is not a barrier to her staying there

@PlanDeRaccordement

Right. So you expect a war torn and under resourced Syrian government to deal with British criminals

She’s no longer British. And what is one more added tonthe thousands they have been dealing with since 2019. Sounds a bit racist to me that you think Syrians cant handle one extra criminal?

Well that's rather the point isn't it? She was made stateless by the British government who insist on telling Bangladesh who it's citizens are. A bit like you do.

And if all you can do is scrape up desperate accusations and name calling to try and prove your point then you should probably rethink your reasoning.

I see you've not answered the question I've asked several times? If you think it's reasonable to force other countries to deal with British born and raised criminals then where do you draw the line? Which criminals is it ok to export to other countries?

Since you seem to think it's 'racist' for me to question the morality of making other countries deal with our criminals I assume you're in favour of us just shipping them out? If not, why not?

She was made stateless by the British government who insist on telling Bangladesh who it's citizens are. A bit like you do.

No, she was not made stateless. International court decided this.

i see you've not answered the question I've asked several times? If you think it's reasonable to force other countries to deal with British born and raised criminals then where do you draw the line? Which criminals is it ok to export to other countries?

I answered it, it is clear in UK law which criminals get stripped of citizenship, suggest you look it up.

Since you seem to think it's 'racist' for me to question the morality of making other countries deal with our criminals I assume you're in favour of us just shipping them out? If not, why not?

You’re deliberately being obtuse. Begum is already in Syria. She went to Syria and committed crimes there. Per international law, she can be tried and convicted there. That’s not “shipping out” criminals. After all, UK tries, convicts and imprisind foreigners who commit crimes in U.K. all the time. Because that’s international law. Don’t believe me, look it up. You have nonBritish in your prisons right now who committed crimes in Britain, were tried in Britain and are serving sentences in Britian. Because that’s the way all countries have agreed it should be. You are going against ALL international laws and treaties by thinking every criminal should be sent to country of citizenship to be tried.

[quote undetetected]@KidneyBeans

Shouldn't be forced on them but how costly can executions be? If Syria wants her here fine, but money is not a barrier to her staying there[/quote]
My understanding is that an effective legal process is costly and resource intensive.
Unless you're suggesting that the Syrian government should behave like war criminals? Which is hardly conducive to their efforts to fight terrorists is it?

But who cares about them as long as we're ok eh?

*My understanding is that an effective legal process is costly and resource intensive.
Unless you're suggesting that the Syrian government should behave like war criminals? Which is hardly conducive to their efforts to fight terrorists is it?

But who cares about them as long as we're ok eh?*

Yeah, well that's their decision to make if they want to sort out IS members. I doubt you really "care" about them either, just sticking up for Shamima. It's not by force for them to take her, a suggestion only. There's already plenty of evidence against her including her only testimony televised on the news and that of others against her. Shouldn't be too hard anyway

No, she was not made stateless. International court decided this.

She is de facto stateless with no Bangladeshi support. The moral result is the same. The British government is quite happy to force other countries to clean up the mess it's citizens make

I answered it, it is clear in UK law which criminals get stripped of citizenship, suggest you look it up.
So absolutely no moral concerns then? Lovely

You are going against ALL international laws and treaties by thinking every criminal should be sent to country of citizenship to be tried.

Yes I can see it's much easier for you to make your point when you entirely fictionalise what I said
Incredible how not only do you know better than the Bangladeshi government who it's de facto citizens are, you also know better than me, what I think.
Remarkable.
And wrong

Had a few drinks sorry for bluntness.

She is British. Born raised schooled. She is a member of our society.

People in our society do terrible things. If and when caught they get prosecuted and face the consequences.

She is nothing to do with Bangladesh. Has she even committed any crimes against them? I doubt it.

She is ours. A home grown terrorist.

As OP pointed out there's loads of men who have acted as she did and they aren't focussed on.

Someone who left at 15 fucking 15. A girl/ woman. Is the govt and press focus as the face of. Evil. Essentially.

She is British. Totally 100%. She's our problem. We seem to be able to deal with large amounts of men who do this with little attention.

It's misogynist and racist. Totally. And shit.