Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

@PlanDeRaccordement

So whose going to make them give her a passport and live in the country? And why should they take her in, she wasn't born there, she didn't grow up there, she didn't go to school there, she wasn't radicalised there. Are we so lacking in responsibility that we expect poor third world countries to deal with our problems?

They don’t have to take her back. You can be a citizen and still in exile or in prison in a foreign country. I think she should face trial in Syria like every other British ISIS Bride and take her chances like they have.

Oh yes let the Kurds deal with the problem. Nothing to do with Britain.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I have found a white British ISIS Bride. She is Nora Camali. She also has had her British citizenship stripped. She was not part of the ISIS female police. She was only a wife and mother. She was tried in Syria at the detention camp and sentenced to life in prison. Her daughter has been sent back to the UK to be raised by relatives.

Where is the racism? Why does a brown girl get TV crews and interviews on the BBC and a chance to garner sympathy, when no one has heard of this white girl?

Shamina Begum should be tried where she is like all the other ISIS brides, she’s not entitled to special treatment.

Nora Camali was tried and found guilty by Syrian authorities of crimes committed in Syria. Not the same situation as Shemima Begum, who has not been formally accused of anything by the Syrian authorities. Those held in camps in Syria who have not been charged and are not being formally investigated by Syrian authorities are considered "displaced persons" under international law. The "international community" has been begging and pleading that their home countries bring them "home" to rehabilitate or try and punish them. The local authorities (understandably) don't have the ability to investigate everyone associated with Daesh across the board, and are focusing on the big fish.

Can you cite evidence that Camali was stripped of her UK citizenship and, like Begum, was made stateless by that act in contravention of international human rights law? I can't, and even if she was, it's a completely separate issue to her being found guilty and imprisoned for a crime committed abroad.

Also, can you please site evidence that Camali is objectively "white" and identifies as "white"?

@PlanDeRaccordement

I have found a white British ISIS Bride. She is Nora Camali. She also has had her British citizenship stripped. She was not part of the ISIS female police. She was only a wife and mother. She was tried in Syria at the detention camp and sentenced to life in prison. Her daughter has been sent back to the UK to be raised by relatives.

Where is the racism? Why does a brown girl get TV crews and interviews on the BBC and a chance to garner sympathy, when no one has heard of this white girl?

Shamina Begum should be tried where she is like all the other ISIS brides, she’s not entitled to special treatment.

Was she a child when she went to Syria?

I find it abhorrent that someone who is entitled to dual citizenship due to their parents' place of birth should somehow be considered less British. Whatever you may think of Shamima Begum, she was born and raised in this country and, as far as I'm aware, never even claimed a Bangladeshi passport, so I believe that she was every bit as British as the next person.

Put her on trial, put her under surveillance, so whatever is necessary to ensure that justice is done and risk is minimised, but don't take away her citizenship. It's fundamentally discriminatory and makes me sick to the stomach.

@SailYourShips

I've just had a look on the Bangladesh citizenship page.

If one parent is Bangladeshi, then you are allowed dual citizenship.

This does not apply to every country. For example, you cannot have dual citizenship of Bangladesh and India or of Bangladesh and China but dual citizenship of Bangladesh and The United Kingdom is allowed.

To all those who are saying the UK won't have her back because of racism (this is unadulterated dog whistle bollocks by the way) what do you think Bangladesh's reasons are for not wanting her slopping up on their shores?

It's not because of racism.

It's because of populist politics by a government who doesn't want to take responsibility for home grown terrorists and prefers to export that problem to other countries.
The lack of accountability is staggering.

The making a British terrorists the problem of a low-income country because of the colour of her skin is simply colonial-inspired populist politics.

@AlexaShutUp

I find it abhorrent that someone who is entitled to dual citizenship due to their parents' place of birth should somehow be considered less British. Whatever you may think of Shamima Begum, she was born and raised in this country and, as far as I'm aware, never even claimed a Bangladeshi passport, so I believe that she was every bit as British as the next person.

Put her on trial, put her under surveillance, so whatever is necessary to ensure that justice is done and risk is minimised, but don't take away her citizenship. It's fundamentally discriminatory and makes me sick to the stomach.

But much easier to 'other' her and make brown terrorists someone else's problem than recognise they're a product of British society.

I have dual citizenship. I was born in Britain, have a British birth certificate and am automatically British. I was entitled to citizenship of another country and as an adult I applied for it. If I hadn't applied for it it would have just been something I could claim. My husband has dual nationality and my children are entitled to 3 nationalities (not sure what you call that) but they have never exercised that right and just have British passports. I don't see how nationality can be forced on you for a country you have never even visited. Even after you take dual citizenship you can renounce one of them if you want to - confirmed by the Foreign Office to someone I know who did indeed renounce their British citizenship.

You think Britain made her a terrorist? Then you do not understand religion and fundamentalist of any religion. First and foremost in religious people’s mind is allegiance to God before allegiance to anything else. Fundamentalists are more intense and think they are God’s right hand on earth.

Unless Shamima denounces her religion, she always be a danger. I can’t see her doing that in any sincerity. She rejected Britain and its liberal culture. Her religion is at odds with all these ideals that are being force onto her. Western ideals are no match for loyalty to God.

There are white-skinned women in exactly the same situation. Why are they less worthy of all this cries of unfairness?

I hVe no idea what the rules are on dual citizenship. I wasn’t born in Britain. It’s never occurred to me that I might take dual citizenship.

@Why2why

You think Britain made her a terrorist? Then you do not understand religion and fundamentalist of any religion. First and foremost in religious people’s mind is allegiance to God before allegiance to anything else. Fundamentalists are more intense and think they are God’s right hand on earth.

Unless Shamima denounces her religion, she always be a danger. I can’t see her doing that in any sincerity. She rejected Britain and its liberal culture. Her religion is at odds with all these ideals that are being force onto her. Western ideals are no match for loyalty to God.

There are white-skinned women in exactly the same situation. Why are they less worthy of all this cries of unfairness?

Well she was born and raised here in British society and became a terrorist. Why should she be Bangladesh's problem? She was a British Muslim, raised in British society and experienced British schooling. Our society allowed a 15 year old schoolgirl to become radicalised.

If we refuse to take responsibility for that or even to recognise it, then how on earth can we begin to prevent it?

@ancientgran

I thought the interview was disgusting. They way they asked about her dead children and their deaths was chilling. She's a human being which seemed to escape Richard Madeley.

I wonder why a brown 15 year old is blamed when she has been groomed when white girls are all victims.

Other groomed girls didn't kill anyone so why would they be anything other than victims?

Basically every criminal ever has been either abused or groomed. They must all be victims then?

@ancientgran

You’re comparing a full ISIS member to a girl who was sex trafficked in the US. It’s disgusting false equivalence. At least try and compare white ISIS women to brown ISIS woman when making claims of racism. That isn't what I'm comparing at all. I'm comparing the fact that people are very ready to believe that one was a victim of grooming at 17 and one can't possibly be a victim of grooming at 15. What they were groomed for and who they were groomed by isn't the point. Either we accept that vulnerable teenagers can be groomed or we don't.

Being a victim of a crime doesn’t necessarily mean you are absolved of all responsibility for acts you committed. We regularly send women to jail for harming the man who was domestically abusing her. I know a man who was jailed for attacking the man who serially abused him as a child so none of this is a new or especially extraordinary concept. Although I am in favor of her having her day in court over this I think that is a crap argument.

Our society allowed a 15 year old schoolgirl to become radicalised.
If we refuse to take responsibility for that or even to recognise it, then how on earth can we begin to prevent it?

No British society is not responsible. You have tens of thousands of Muslims not radicalised, so it not British society that is responsible. It’s the individual.

The making a British terrorists the problem of a low-income country because of the colour of her skin is simply colonial-inspired populist politics

Bullshit. International law determines where you get tried and by whom
Begum is trying to get special treatment.

@PlanDeRaccordement

*Our society allowed a 15 year old schoolgirl to become radicalised. If we refuse to take responsibility for that or even to recognise it, then how on earth can we begin to prevent it?*

No British society is not responsible. You have tens of thousands of Muslims not radicalised, so it not British society that is responsible. It’s the individual.

So you think that justifies trying to make dual nationality terrorists the problem of other countries ?

It's basically a modern version of exporting criminals to penal colonies. We still expect countries with less infrastructure than us to deal with criminal that we produced.
Where do you draw the line? Do you think we should revoke citizenship for all dual nationality criminals currently incarcerated in the Uk then?
Export them all to be someone else's problem?

I don't see how nationality can be forced on you for a country you have never even visited.
Depends on the law of the country in question, it most certainly can be forced on you as Boris Johnson well knows as he had to pay US tax on a U.K. house sale because he was born a US citizen.

Where do you draw the line? Do you think we should revoke citizenship for all dual nationality criminals currently incarcerated in the Uk then?

The law is very clear on when citizenship should be stripped and it was applied appropriately in the case of Begum and others. Suggest you look up your own laws and read them.

@PlanDeRaccordement

The making a British terrorists the problem of a low-income country because of the colour of her skin is simply colonial-inspired populist politics

Bullshit. International law determines where you get tried and by whom
Begum is trying to get special treatment.

International law also prevent countries making people stateless. Doesn't mean the British government aren't trying though. Anything to avoid recognising that we contributed to this problem Much easier to make Bangladesh responsible for a British criminal that's never set foot there than to admit she's our problem

Interesting isn't it how Emma Radenescu is British but Shamima must be Bangladeshi

It's almost like we pick and choose exactly who is it we want to be British regardless of their actual heritage and birthplace.
Anything to claim glory and shirk responsibility I guess

Nora Camali was tried and found guilty by Syrian authorities of crimes committed in Syria. Not the same situation as Shemima Begum, who has not been formally accused of anything by the Syrian authorities.
Source?

It's almost like we pick and choose exactly who is it we want to be British regardless of their actual heritage and birthplace.

Yeah British choose to strip citizenship from terrorists who fought against them. Imagine that. Much nicer than back on the day when traitors would be hung drawn and quartered. Had enough of your white guilt.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Where do you draw the line? Do you think we should revoke citizenship for all dual nationality criminals currently incarcerated in the Uk then?

The law is very clear on when citizenship should be stripped and it was applied appropriately in the case of Begum and others. Suggest you look up your own laws and read them.

It is illegal to leave a citizen stateless. That is why there is a legal challenge in this case. Bangladesh have clearly stated she doesn't have citizenship there.

Regardless of the law, why do you think it's morally acceptable for the British government to dump a terrorists in Bangladesh?

@PlanDeRaccordement

It's almost like we pick and choose exactly who is it we want to be British regardless of their actual heritage and birthplace.

Yeah British choose to strip citizenship from terrorists who fought against them. Imagine that. Much nicer than back on the day when traitors would be hung drawn and quartered. Had enough of your white guilt.

And expect other countries to deal with the problems their society have created? Why do you think Bangladesh should be responsible for her? She's never set foot there

If she has committed crimes, then we should put her on trial for them. I do believe that she was groomed but I still think that she has to take responsibility for any crimes that she has committed.

What I take issue with is the fact that she has been treated differently because she had a claim to dual citizenship. She was very clearly a British citizen - born and raised in the UK - and the fact that one or both of her parents happened to be born overseas in a country that happened to allow dual citizenship should not make her into some kind of second class citizen with fewer rights than anyone else. She had not even ever laid claim to her Bangladeshi citizenship.

It seems fundamentally wrong to me that someone else could have done exactly what Shamima Begum did, but they would have been treated differently if both parents had been born in the UK. Or, indeed, if both parents had been born in India or some other country that does not permit dual citizenship. It's totally random and totally unfair.

If she has done wrong, let's bring her to justice and make her do the time. Let us not discriminate against her on account of who her parents were.

@PlanDeRaccordement

It's almost like we pick and choose exactly who is it we want to be British regardless of their actual heritage and birthplace.

Yeah British choose to strip citizenship from terrorists who fought against them. Imagine that. Much nicer than back on the day when traitors would be hung drawn and quartered. Had enough of your white guilt.

So where do you draw the line? Do you think we should make other countries responsible for all of our dual citizen criminals?

That is why there is a legal challenge in this case.
Bangladesh have clearly stated she doesn't have citizenship there.

Was a legal challenge, it failed. She has citizenship by birth. And no she’s not being dumped on Bangladesh. She can face trial in Syria according to international law like all the other hundreds of female ISIS members.