Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

@undetetected

*My understanding is that an effective legal process is costly and resource intensive. Unless you're suggesting that the Syrian government should behave like war criminals? Which is hardly conducive to their efforts to fight terrorists is it?

But who cares about them as long as we're ok eh?*

Yeah, well that's their decision to make if they want to sort out IS members. I doubt you really "care" about them either, just sticking up for Shamima. It's not by force for them to take her, a suggestion only. There's already plenty of evidence against her including her only testimony televised on the news and that of others against her. Shouldn't be too hard anyway

It's not their decision though is it? It's not like they have a choice - give in to terrorists or pay a fortune for justice for terrorists from other countries who've washed their hands of them. Great choice

Also where exactly have I 'stuck up for Shamima' ?
That's nonsense in an attempt to detract from the fact that you think it's morally ok for us to force other less-resourced nations to deal with criminals born and raised here

What exactly is the issue with her being tried and sentenced here?

Why on earth not?

As an aside, where do you get your hair and nails done like that in a prison camp?! And where did she get the clothes from?

Bangladesh is not well off at all and has huge things to deal with. Not least the one million rohingya refugees when shamina was found in the camp.

@KidneyBeans
The British government is quite happy to force other countries to clean up the mess it's citizens make
No force necessary. It’s international law that if you commit a crime in country x, you get tried in country x. Begum simply is not special. She is like every other criminal.

So absolutely no moral concerns then? Lovely
None, because stripping a dual citizen of one citizenship merely makes them equal to most humans on the planet. It’s the taking away of a privileged status. No more, no less.

Incredible how not only do you know better than the Bangladeshi government who it's de facto citizens are, you also know better than me, what I think.
I am only repeating the high court decision which found that she is Bangladeshi. So yes, they know better than Bangladesh and you. (And me).

Apparently there are thousnds of women awaiting trial in Syria for terrorism. Thry get a 10 minute hearing with no lawyers and then sre sentenced either to execution or life in prison. I looked it up. Its grim. But why is she entitled to kid glove treatment.

Why is it better to send her to a country which has periodic weather that kills untold people. That is not well off at all. That has on top of the environment issues and the poverty issues and how the hell to take a million refugees on top of that.

Who I imagine don't have any charges against her.

Better than bringing her home to the country she was born in raised in educated in grew up in. To face justice..

It's utter bollocks.

And meanwhile the hundreds of men who were more likely to be hurting people than you know. Being pregnant and then having babies die.

Are. Not mentioned.

The face of evil is a woman who went as a girl.

It's shit.

It's misogynist and racist. Totally.

No it’s not. She’s had more favourable press coverage than male ISIS members. White British ISIS brides are either killed by drones or in prison for life, yet she thinks she can just go back to the UK..

She was a child groomed online by serial predators who lost a baby because Sajid Javed chose to strip her of her citizenship rather than save it, the UK's treatment of her is completely inhumane and is all about appealing to the most base Tory voter

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@KidneyBeans
The British government is quite happy to force other countries to clean up the mess it's citizens make
No force necessary. It’s international law that if you commit a crime in country x, you get tried in country x. Begum simply is not special. She is like every other criminal.

So absolutely no moral concerns then? Lovely
None, because stripping a dual citizen of one citizenship merely makes them equal to most humans on the planet. It’s the taking away of a privileged status. No more, no less.

Incredible how not only do you know better than the Bangladeshi government who it's de facto citizens are, you also know better than me, what I think.
I am only repeating the high court decision which found that she is Bangladeshi. So yes, they know better than Bangladesh and you. (And me).[/quote]
The option on whether states have an obligation to repatriate their citizens who joined ISIS is still open for debate, and this repatriation issue remains a daunting task. While the current international law does not provide a direct answer, several legal instruments seem to be in favor of such obligation. By highlighting the obligation of states to investigate and prosecute FTFs, a number of UNSCRs (such as UNSCRs 2178 and 2396) have called on states to take all necessary measures to investigate, repatriate, prosecute, and rehabilitate their citizens who wish to return home.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/21582440211032679

Seems international law is not so clear as you seem to think in the case of war criminals and freedom fighters

@NiceGerbil
Why is it better to send her to a country..
No one is talking about sending her to Bangladesh! Per international law she should be tried in Syria like all the other ISIS brides and serve her prison sentence there for her crimes..just .like the other British ISIS bride Nora Camali. Why is Begum special?

@KidneyBeans
The option on whether states have an obligation to repatriate their citizens who joined ISIS is still open for debate,

U.K. already decided not to repatriate ANY ISIS members. None. Why do you think you know better than all your government?

@Viviennemary

Apparently there are thousnds of women awaiting trial in Syria for terrorism. Thry get a 10 minute hearing with no lawyers and then sre sentenced either to execution or life in prison. I looked it up. Its grim. But why is she entitled to kid glove treatment.

I wouldn't suggest a lifetime in prison is kid glove treatment. But then I would sneer at a (mostly) effective and democratic justice system either. Or expect other Syria to deal with war criminals from multiple other countries

@Blinky21

She was a child groomed online by serial predators who lost a baby because Sajid Javed chose to strip her of her citizenship rather than save it, the UK's treatment of her is completely inhumane and is all about appealing to the most base Tory voter

Wow you can't be serious. I guess she was just in Syria handling out pamphlets. It's terrible her baby died but why should she be saved before any other refugee in that camp? They're all there because of IS, then they have to sit and watch her be evacuated?

As for the rest of your comments, they've been done to death about grooming etc.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@KidneyBeans
The option on whether states have an obligation to repatriate their citizens who joined ISIS is still open for debate,

U.K. already decided not to repatriate ANY ISIS members. None. Why do you think you know better than all your government?[/quote]
Yes I'm aware of this. And the my point that you seem to be spectacularly missing, is that I think we have a moral obligation not to expect other countries to deal with war criminals born and raised here. That viewpoint is supported by human rights declarations.

As to whether I know better than my government? I can only presume that you're entirely unfamiliar with the British government in its present form. They certainly don't have a solid foundation in ethical decision making

@Blinky21

She was a child groomed online by serial predators who lost a baby because Sajid Javed chose to strip her of her citizenship rather than save it, the UK's treatment of her is completely inhumane and is all about appealing to the most base Tory voter

Her baby didn’t die because she was a dual citizen one day and a sole citizen the next. That’s like blaming the death of an infant on an unpaid council tax bill. Ridiculous. Her decisions led to her being in that camp pregnant. She is responsible and no one else.

I think we have a moral obligation not to expect other countries to deal with war criminals born and raised here.

Well you’ll have to change the mind of the entire United Nations on that....good luck.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I think we have a moral obligation not to expect other countries to deal with war criminals born and raised here.

Well you’ll have to change the mind of the entire United Nations on that....good luck.

Except for the U.S.A. (Member if the UN Security Council) that has repatriated ALL of its terrorist citizens and is encouraging other nations to do so.

I think we should probably be rethinking our actions when the USA is ahead of us in taking responsibility for criminal justice and global security

She is a security risk and you are defending her just because she is female? I am sure our intelligence services are fully aware more than you any of us as to why she is not allowed to return.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I think we have a moral obligation not to expect other countries to deal with war criminals born and raised here.

Well you’ll have to change the mind of the entire United Nations on that....good luck.

Fascinating though that you think you should only have an opinion that aligns with existing norms and legislation. Especially when most legislation is ethically outdated by the time it's implemented.

How do you think regulation is ever improved if it's never challenged?

'But why is she entitled to kid glove treatment.'

It's not 'kid glove'.

She's British by birth and background.

She is our problem.

As such we should have her home and prosecute her.

It's not about her. It's about principles.

She is a British citizen who has engaged in activities that are a concern to our state.

OP pointed out correctly there are hundreds of men who have done similar come home tried etc. No publicity no press. Men who are older. Men who in those groups would be way more likely to engage in attacks etc than women who are property, for breeding.

All those men and yet she is the face of evil. Essentially.

It's not right.

She's British. Bring her home. Try her. Let her serve her time.

To have her so focussed on while all those men go... Invisible to the public. It's dodgy as fuck.

@KalvinPhillipsManBun

She is a security risk and you are defending her just because she is female? I am sure our intelligence services are fully aware more than you any of us as to why she is not allowed to return.

But not a security risk to the Syrian people? You're happy for us just to force them to deal with her then?

I don't trust her. However, I'd like to see her back here and interrogated fully and face what she's done. I don't want to hear veiled shit from the government like "if we knew the truth" well bloody tell us then!!! or her crap on GMB. I want full and upfront details in a court of law. Here. She's British, she's our problem.

I still don't understand why anyone thinks she should have fewer rights than any other British citizen simply by virtue of her parents' place of birth. Are we now saying that the British children of immigrant parents are actually second class citizens who are not quite as British as the rest of us? I find that approach very troubling indeed.

Except for the U.S.A. (Member if the UN Security Council) that has repatriated ALL of its terrorist citizens and is encouraging other nations to do so. I think we should probably be rethinking our actions when the USA is ahead of us in taking responsibility for criminal justice and global security

Lol. No they haven’t. You are lying. When Indonesia sponsored a U.N. Security Council resolution earlier in 2020 on the repatriation of ISIS foreign fighters, France, USA and U.K. all used their veto power to oppose it, asking for the removal of language about “mandatory” repatriation and instead making it an individual decision for each country. There are still formerly American women in the Syrian camps awaiting prosecution.