Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

only affects those with parents born elsewhere or who are dual nationals (I.e. generally non-white people)

This is not true. Dual citizens are a mix of all races. Boris Johnson, your own prime minister was a dual citizen. There are MANY dual citizens that are British and Australian, US, Canadian, New Zealand, French, Irish, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, German, Finnish, Swiss, etc etc.

She claims Bangladesh has refused to let her in but even if they did. she would face the death penalty.

More likely she refuses to go because she doesn’t want to face a trial in which she might get death penalty. She should take her chances just like Linda Wenzel did.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards?

You mean she should not be treated like the other 150+ dual national extremists who have had their British nationality removed?

Exact numbers not known, but she's being held to the same standards as the others who travelled to join ISIS.

Those who do not have entitlement to another nationality might end up back here, and probably facing a lengthy prison sentence.

I didn’t know 150 + dual nationals have had their citizenship revoked. It is disgusting that just one of those dual nationals had their British citizenship if they were born and raised on U.K. soil. We should clean up our mess.

I also didn’t know about the other dual nationals having their citizenship taken away. It’s hard to know whether shamima is as much a threat to the UK as those other ISIS fighters, and was it a uniformly applied policy, or whether the vilification by public and press swayed the home secretary’s decision about shamima.

It is certainly true that in the British public eye, she is seen as the worst of ISIS. I don’t see that as fair.

@meditrina

Why is this one woman being held to different standards?

You mean she should not be treated like the other 150+ dual national extremists who have had their British nationality removed?

Exact numbers not known, but she's being held to the same standards as the others who travelled to join ISIS.

Those who do not have entitlement to another nationality might end up back here, and probably facing a lengthy prison sentence.

This one woman is being held to the same standards as anyone else who constantly lies, watched beheadings with no emotion, shows no emotion about the deaths of her children and was witnessed stitching men into suicide vests.

She is a terrorist and right now we have one less terrorist in our country.

“She is a terrorist and right now we have one less terrorist in our country.“

Absolutely. Plus she’s been nothing but a financial drain on the country she consciously rejected.

She was educated by the State until she was 15, then left before she started working (so no contribution to taxes). She cost the Police money in initially searching for her, then more in Intelligence and Home Office activities directly related to her.

If she came back we’d have to spend on a trial and pre-trial custody. More again if she was given a prison sentence, yet more on de-radicalisation counselling and we’d never stop keeping tabs on her so tens, if not hundreds, of thousands on Intelligence activities.

And for what? What will she ever contribute to either the public purse or society in general over her next 50+ years of life?

We should take in a thousand Yaziri women instead and pay for them to have the education and life opportunities she rejected.

The fact she "might" be entitled to another citizenship even though that country has denied that she is entitled to it; has huge implications possibly entitled to any other citizenship.
So if you have Irish ancestors or dual nationality your British nationality is worth less and can be taken away.
And lots of people on Mumsnet have done stupid things at 15. The girl is so young and has lost several children.
I am ashamed of a country who do this to her.

@MollyButton

The fact she "might" be entitled to another citizenship even though that country has denied that she is entitled to it; has huge implications possibly entitled to any other citizenship. So if you have Irish ancestors or dual nationality your British nationality is worth less and can be taken away. And lots of people on Mumsnet have done stupid things at 15. The girl is so young and has lost several children. I am ashamed of a country who do this to her.

Yes, many of us have done stupid things at 15.

But joining a terrorist organisation that maims, bombs, kills, stones, rapes, beheads, tortures, drowns and immolates men, women and children is generally not one of them.

Keeping a Yazidi sex slave and strapping suicide vests to women is not quite the same as shoplifting some chewing gum, or stealing a cigarette or getting drunk in a field.

She was only 15? Aaron Campbell was only 16 when he brutally raped and murdered a 6 year old girl. Does his age mean we excuse his crime? Of course it doesn't!

She showed no remorse however I noticed today she has changed her approach completely.I also found her very arrogant by claiming that as we as a country weren’t doing very well which she could fix.

I would ask the victims of the Manchester bombings how they would feel about her returning.
I don’t know the rights or wrongs of her losing citizenship and I do have a certain sympathy for her situation and I can’t imagine the pain she must have felt losing her babies but to be honest I care more about the Manchester bomb victims feelings and other victims of terrorism than I do hers. What she represents and what happened to them I can well imagine how much worse it would make them feel if she were to return.

Not RTFT.

I know this subject is highly divisive.

I agree there is massive misogyny with this.

My view has always been-

She was born here. Grew up here. Went though our school system. She is 'ours'. She is British by birth and this is her home country.

She was 15 when she left. Very young.

The decision to revoke her citizenship was utterly appalling. The dual citizenship argued. Iirc she doesn't know the language etc. The Bangladeshi govt I think said no that's not how it works. Our govt looked for a loophole in order to wash UK's hands of her. But she's British and this is her home. It was utterly unethical and attracted a lot of criticism here and abroad.

Contd

Ok so she goes to Bangladesh. Then what? I've had a Google and I can't see the crime that she is accused of here. The specific one. And the reports on what she did seem to vary wildly.
So Bangladesh do what?
They don't know anything about her. Try her for a crime of some sort? Get all the info from UK and sift through it? If it's sensitive would we even share it? She's nothing to do with them and there's no indication of the govt talking to them about... Evidence etc etc.

Just oh here you go. Your problem.

To a country that is not well off and has enough on its hands. I remember at the time this was all going on they had a MILLION rohingya refugees on their hands.

Isn't it obvious that we are way better placed to deal with her? In terms of language info evidence resources?

I thought that was really shit tbh.

She should be prosecuted here and Face the consequences.

The whole thing is a farce.

Not just misogynist but racist.

The govt and media threw a girl who left at 15 and I can't imagine had much fun out there and has lost 3 children as the focus of terrorist threat in the UK.

While all these blokes so many just processed as normal no hooha etc.

The whole thing has angered me from day 1.

If she was brought back she would end up in HMP Bronzfield serving a massive sentence, she'd probably die in custody before she got out, because the courts would want to make an example of her.

Cost of housing her in the prison estate upwards of £46,000 a year. For what the next 50 years?

It's genuinely cheaper to leave her where she is.

I don’t think she is an innocent bystander but manipulative, with the number of people still stuck in Afghanistan frightened for their lives she has picked a good time to renew her request.
I just think she is dangerous.

@Starisnotanumber

In 2016 a 15 year old schoolgirl who was known as Gemma (not her true name)ran away with her teacher Jeremy Forrest to France she was treated as a grooming victim and he was given a prison sentence. 15 year old Shamina is treated as if she made the decision and was mature enough that she wasn't a victim

I think the difference is that “Gemma” probably wasn’t accused of participating in horrific crimes. It’s not necessarily about what she did at 15 but in the subsequent years and grooming doesn’t necessarily excuse it. A better analogy would be if Gemma had been groomed and then 2 years later helped him kidnap and rape other girls would we just treat her as a victim or hold her accountable for some of her decisions and actions? I think the public deserves to have her come back to fight for her citizenship if only to clear the air but I’m otherwise reserving judgement.

Dangerous or not she is born raised educated etc here.

Fobbing her off into Bangladesh is a total dick move.

She's our problem. We deal with her.

@NiceGerbil

She should be prosecuted here and Face the consequences.

The whole thing is a farce.

Not just misogynist but racist.

The govt and media threw a girl who left at 15 and I can't imagine had much fun out there and has lost 3 children as the focus of terrorist threat in the UK.

While all these blokes so many just processed as normal no hooha etc.

The whole thing has angered me from day 1.

In what sense is the treatment of Begum misogynist and racist? Any examples?

@ShinyThingsDistractMe

If she was brought back she would end up in HMP Bronzfield serving a massive sentence, she'd probably die in custody before she got out, because the courts would want to make an example of her.

Cost of housing her in the prison estate upwards of £46,000 a year. For what the next 50 years?

It's genuinely cheaper to leave her where she is.

So why do you think the Kurds should be responsible? Poorer than us, suffered more at the hands of IS but they should deal with our problems.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Funny how Virginia Giuffre was so young and vulnerable at 17 but Shamima Begum wasn't at 15.

It’s not about what Begum did at 15, but what she did at 18 & 19 that makes her a war criminal.

Yes and if you were living in an IS stronghold that you couldn't leave I'm sure you wouldn't do what you were told, you'd probably give them all a good telling off and make them behave.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Marcee
Shes not a dual citizen

Yes she is. Begum is British Bangladeshi by birth.[/quote]
Well Bangladesh doesn't agree with you.

Yes and if you were living in an IS stronghold that you couldn't leave I'm sure you wouldn't do what you were told, you'd probably give them all a good telling off and make them behave.

I’d try and escape like other ISIS brides who arrived and realised their error. For example, Daniela Greene successfully fled ISIL after only two months in Syria, she’s currently in prison. I wouldn’t join their female police squad and beat up/kill other women. I wouldn’t sew teenagers into bomb vests. I wouldn’t justify the rape and murder of Yazidi sex slaves. I wouldn’t justify the beheadings of western journalists. I wouldn’t defend the Manchester bomber.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Yes and if you were living in an IS stronghold that you couldn't leave I'm sure you wouldn't do what you were told, you'd probably give them all a good telling off and make them behave.

I’d try and escape like other ISIS brides who arrived and realised their error. For example, Daniela Greene successfully fled ISIL after only two months in Syria, she’s currently in prison. I wouldn’t join their female police squad and beat up/kill other women. I wouldn’t sew teenagers into bomb vests. I wouldn’t justify the rape and murder of Yazidi sex slaves. I wouldn’t justify the beheadings of western journalists. I wouldn’t defend the Manchester bomber.

I'm sure you'd be a real hero. Well done.

Well Bangladesh doesn't agree with you.

Doesn’t matter. Its down to their laws and international law. They tried to argue to the high court that stripping Begum of her U.K. citizenship was unlawful, and they lost.