Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

@bilbodog

She was only 15 and was groomed. The authorities knew the 3 girls were being groomed but didnt tell their parents and ‘allowed’ them to leave the UK and get to syria.

There is no doubt in my mind that once there she would have found it almost impossible to leave and would have been killed if she had tried.

Also when being interviewed in the camp its obvious she would have been surrounded by ISIS as well as traumatised by everything she had experienced so of course she had to be very careful what she said.

She was a child, she was groomed, raped and traumatised - she should be brought back.

Sorry but this is rubbish. She didn't go off to get a piercing or a tattoo, she subscribed in thought and action to one of the most brutal ideologies ever known. She should face the full consequences of that, with no justification or compassion, same as she meted to others, and would have continued to do if circumstances had been different.

No evidence she was raped at all. She married a fighter out there and has never expressed regret about that.

I think the UK handling of this is utterly shameful. Utterly.
She was a vulnerable child who was groomed. A uk citizen. She should be allowed to return and face justice here.

She was raped because she was only 15

Id say every single member of isis was groomed.

I don't care whether she'd make or female! For what she's done, and what she's capable of doing, I don't want her in this country!

Children do sometimes do awful things and the fact they are children doesn't change the gravity of their actions. Yes, she was groomed, but ultimately she made decisions and choices that she has to bear the consequences of.

@Branleuse

Id say every single member of isis was groomed.

Maybe not every single member but yes a lot of them were manipulated, coerced, brainwashed, whatever you want to call it

The whole aim of terrorist/insurgent propaganda is to promise recruits a wonderful existence fighting injustice, the reality is usually different

Thousands of foreign fighters were promised a utopian existence in the new caliphate, when they arrived it was rather different. Do none of them bear responsibility because they were lied to? Many of them were only a couple years older than Shamima.

I think the grooming aspects should be taken into account during sentencing but I don't think it eliminates culpability. If you start saying that psychological manipulation diminishes responsibility for war crimes, then you start to get into a very dangerous place when it comes to accountability for atrocities.

That interview was pure lies, she pretended she didn't know what ISIS were doing.
She didn't seem remorseful just rehearsed and actually arrogant at times.
I don't have any sympathy for her at all especially after what she said previously about the bombing in Manchester that killed children.

I don't believe there's misogyny in this, she's just getting air time because of the first interview she did where she said some pretty awful stuff, it attracts attention and she's all about trying to get as much of that as possible to get back to Britain.

My sympathy is for the people brutally murdered by the terrorist organisation she got involved with all those poor young yazidi women and children kidnapped and enslaved.
As well as the decapitations and bombings.

She shouldn't have had the air time.
She's been identified as a security threat.
We don't need her in Britain for a trial where like many others she wouldnt face any real consequences.

Not sure about mysogyny, but I did read somewhere that people have sympathy with victims of grooming, until they see a black or brown face. Although there wasn't a lot of sympathy shown to the girls of Rotherham.

@Pinkspecs

That interview was pure lies, she pretended she didn't know what ISIS were doing. She didn't seem remorseful just rehearsed and actually arrogant at times. I don't have any sympathy for her at all especially after what she said previously about the bombing in Manchester that killed children.

I don't believe there's misogyny in this, she's just getting air time because of the first interview she did where she said some pretty awful stuff, it attracts attention and she's all about trying to get as much of that as possible to get back to Britain.

My sympathy is for the people brutally murdered by the terrorist organisation she got involved with all those poor young yazidi women and children kidnapped and enslaved.
As well as the decapitations and bombings.

She shouldn't have had the air time.
She's been identified as a security threat.
We don't need her in Britain for a trial where like many others she wouldnt face any real consequences.

Yes yes yes to the arrogance!

When she came out with "well you should let me into your country as I could help the government fight terrorism because you lot clearly don't know what they are doing!" (Note it's always you and your country not her home country)

I swear I could have slapped her!

Her citizenship was stripped long before Jack Letts' was and he actually has Canadian citizenship. Jack Letts' father: he has been convicted in court for funding terrorism, is not a British citizen and yet is still permitted to reside here. Where is the deportation order for him?

Britain created Begum and should deal appropriately with her, not try and pass her off onto another country (Bangladesh has denied that she has citizenship, and Syria obviously can't deal with her). Whether she theoretically has the right to apply for Bangladeshi citizenship or not, they've been clear that they're not giving her it.

Would the Home Office strip someone of British citizenship if they have one Irish grandparent? They'd be entitled to claim it by descent after all.

@Washeduponthebeach

No evidence she was raped at all. She married a fighter out there and has never expressed regret about that.

She was 15, she was married off within a few days of arriving there. It wasn't a love's young dream situation was it.

Funny how Virginia Giuffre was so young and vulnerable at 17 but Shamima Begum wasn't at 15.

Her citizenship was stripped long before Jack Letts' was

What is your point? She had hers stripped after over 120 other dual citizens did. She wasn’t first, nor last. Just one of many men and women who have had their citizenship stripped for joining ISIS. Therefore there is no misogyny in her having her citizenship stripped.

Syria obviously can't deal with her

Why not? After all the Germans left their female jihadi, Linda Wenzel, to face the death penalty in Iraq and she too joined ISIS at 15. She stood trial in an Iraqi Court for her crimes and was sentenced to 6yrs in prison. Why can’t Shamina also be brought to trial for her crimes outside the UK? And it would be on par with what her male counterparts are facing.

Several male jihadists that were also stripped of British citizenship are being tried/face trial all over the world. For example London-born Ashraf Mahmud Islam was 18 years old and studying A-levels when he joined ISIS and he has had his British citizenship stripped and is currently facing the death penalty in Syria. Alexander Kotey, one of the Beatles, is being tried in the US and faces life in prison.

The international law is an ISIS fighter gets tried in the country of whichever armed forces captured them. There’s no requirement to send them to whichever country they are a citizen of to face trial.

Funny how Virginia Giuffre was so young and vulnerable at 17 but Shamima Begum wasn't at 15.

It’s not about what Begum did at 15, but what she did at 18 & 19 that makes her a war criminal.

@Schmoana

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

It's racism more than misogyny.

If was due to her potentially being able to apply for citizenship in Bangladesh (even though she does not actually have a Bangladesh passport), so only affects those with parents born elsewhere or who are dual nationals (I.e. generally non-white people).

It's a difficult one for the government tbh & they took the approach with a number of men too. I think countries just don't know what to do with people like her, as it's likely they wouldn't actually have enough hard evidence to prosecute her.

Gosh there is a lot of strong feeling around this, and conflicting views about the legalities.

My concern is that people have heard so much more about shamima, she has been vilified by the press, she is trending on Twitter right now.

There have been press reports about what she did as an ISIS bride, are these real/correct? She has been made a figurehead for everything we hate, but she hasn’t had her day in court.

Is the decision to strip British nationality just about populism? Initially it was rejected then overturned so it is obviously nuanced.

There is very strong sentiment from piers Morgan and the like, is he right about her? Why is she so much worse than the other ISIS fighters who have been allowed their day in court?

I think of my 16 year old who games constantly and who hasn’t got a clue what’s in the news because we don’t watch it together - is it so hard to believe that someone drawn could be drawn into an echo chamber then be groomed? I have some sympathy with anti-western sentiment, the US especially haven’t showered themselves in glory.

And once in Syria, what option is there but to do as you are told? ISIS are/were barbaric - I can believe she would be in fear of her life.

I do have more respect for sahid javid than the rest of this corrupt government, he does seem to be a man with some integrity (he resigned when Johnson told him to sack his team). He said he’d seen evidence of her awfulness. But if that evidence is there, it should be used in a court against her.

I agree she comes across quite badly, almost psychopathic. The touching of her mouth and face I think were about sweat and flies in the hot climate rather than necessary lying though. But she should have her day in court like many other male Isis fighters have had.

Purple you have a good point about this being racism rather than misogyny

Something I saw on Twitter -

@AbiWilks
You don’t need to have sympathy for Shamima Begum to recognise that if citizenship of dual citizens is made conditional, they do not have equal legal rights to other British citizens.

Creates a lesser, 2nd class of conditional citizens whose rights can be revoked by the state

But I still think that she has been vilified by the British public, much more than ISIS male fighters, which may have contributed to the stripping of her British citizenship.

@PlanDeRaccordement

That’s not true that dual citizen men ISIS fighters are being held to different standards. All other dual citizens who fought for ISIS were also stripped of their British citizenship. Look up the Beatles.

The only ones that have been allowed back to face criminal proceedings in UK are those who are only British citizens because international law forbids making a person stateless.

The difference isn’t man vs woman, but dual citizen vs sole citizen.

Shes not a dual citizen

You don’t need to have sympathy for Shamima Begum to recognise that if citizenship of dual citizens is made conditional, they do not have equal legal rights to other British citizens. Creates a lesser, 2nd class of conditional citizens whose rights can be revoked by the state

Too late, this is the case worldwide by law for all dual citizens. And dual citizens have more rights than single citizens in that they have rights to live and work in more than one country. Unlike sole citizens. And the law that allows their citizenship to be stripped only allows one citizenship to be stripped, making them a sole citizen like most other people are.

It’s also not racism as this applies to all dual citizens no matter their ethnicity.

@Marcee
Shes not a dual citizen

Yes she is. Begum is British Bangladeshi by birth.

But I still think that she has been vilified by the British public, much more than ISIS male fighters, which may have contributed to the stripping of her British citizenship.

I don’t agree. Most coverage of her is far more sympathetic than that of the male ISIS fighters. That’s why there is such controversy over her. People want to treat her as a special case because she is female, but the authorities are treating her the same as the males.

@Babdoc

OP, Begum also has Bangladeshi citizenship, through her Bangladeshi parents. If she is so desperate to get out of Syria, she can go there tomorrow. The UK is legally entitled to remove citizenship from anyone who has a dual nationality elsewhere, as Begum has.

She claims Bangladesh has refused to let her in but even if they did. she would face the death penalty.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@Marcee
Shes not a dual citizen

Yes she is. Begum is British Bangladeshi by birth.[/quote]
Well, she was a dual citizen. Now she is only Bangladeshi.