Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

Promised the earth, made to feel part of something she didn't understand

Surely 15 year olds know it’s wrong to sew someone into a suicide vest which will detonate if they try to get out of it?

People wouldn't be defending her if she were a bloke...

More than 300 blokes have done similar and come back no fuss etc. And they were adults when they went...

From FT couple years old but it is what it is.

'An estimated 300 to 400 Britons who were recruited by Isis and went out to Syria and Iraq have already returned to the UK.

Home Office policy dictates that such individuals who are over the age of criminal responsibility — which in England and Wales is 10 years old — “must expect to be investigated” by police to determine whether they should face charges, and to assess their level of security risk.'

Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?
Well yes, ISIS who she chose to go out and join are very misogynistic, I wouldn't call them fine though.

Why2why comment is so ridiculous. I was going to ignore it but anyway.

I was a at school with a friend from Bosnia. I had no idea she was a Muslim until the war. You know that was war where Christian Serbs carried out ethnic cleansing. Recognised as an act of genocide.

She was from the area that was Central in the violence. Mass rape execution. Mass graves.

She was a bog standard teen and is now a bog standard mum.

I haven't over all these years suspected that she was keen to destroy my (her) way of life.

That comment was so ridiculous I mean come on. Every single Muslim in the world? That's just... I mean what?!

@MichelleScarn

Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest? Well yes, ISIS who she chose to go out and join are very misogynistic, I wouldn't call them fine though.

She went with 2 other school friends.

Someone earlier said 5 girls from that school went.

The lack in interest in who was talking to them, how they persuaded them, who arranged and paid for the flights etc. There seems to be no interest in this.

Even though clearly if they are still operating then other girls are at risk.

Oh sorry my mistake. I forget 15 yo girls are totally adult. Coincidence there were so many from one school but hey. No point looking into that. I mean 5 in one school unlucky but hey no point wondering what was going on.

Should laws about grooming and the idea that 15yo are still children be discarded for girls?

Seems there's an argument for it. They are mature adult by that age.

It seems unreasonable to have laws about drinking sex going to school etc for girls past 14. Also should not be seen as children in grooming cases if have turned 15.

Seems fair. As fully mature people it seems patronising and restrictive to treat girls that age as naive or vulnerable.

Also it's 18 for prostitution and other 'sex work'. Also for porn.

Why should fully mature people have their freedom and earning opportunities restricted? That's not fair.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]Well that’s not what the reports have said regarding Shamina and other radicalised teens from the west. Women didn’t have equal rights in ISIS but that didn’t make their roles any less essential or less guilty.

There was the Al-Khansaa brigade. And Shamina is accused of being a member of it among other things, she certainly wasn’t too young given other ISIS women like Linda Wenzel who joined the around same age as her (15/16) have confessed to it.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-british-women-running-sharia-police-unit-islamic-state-syria-9717510.html

www.rt.com/uk/211791-british-female-jihadi-khansa/

I’ve already posted a lot about women recruiters and cyber jihadists.

This sums up my viewpoint.
“Women have always played a role in war, if not in actual combat then in the vital areas of intelligence gathering, medical care, food preparation and support. ISIS’s vicious campaign to carve out a state ruled by a fundamentalist interpretation of Islamic law is no different, though its strict laws prohibiting mixing between genders has limited women’s presence on the front lines.”

“Women are necessary for a state to function, says Shiraz Maher of the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation. Calls went out for female doctors, nurses and engineers. When ISIS took over the Syrian city of Raqqa in 2013, it required a female security force to ensure that local women complied with Islamic laws of dress and conduct. It needed female police to check women passing through checkpoints, in case they were carrying arms for the opposition.”
time.com/3276567/how-isis-is-recruiting-women-from-around-the-world/[/quote]
All well and good, but she wasn't a woman when she was groomed and left the UK, she was a girl.

@NiceGerbil

More than 300 blokes have done similar and come back no fuss etc. And they were adults when they went...

You think members of the mumsnet feminist section would've been defending them as vocally as Shamima?

Also, flying out to join ISIS isn't the same as actually committing atrocities, and there's apparently plenty of horrible stuff which the public hasn't been told - as if recruiting children, sewing women into suicide vests (in case they change their mind), and sympathising with the murder of teenage girls at the mancs bombing isn't already enough.

I don't care for whataboutery about other jihadis. Her rights don't trump our safety IMO. Plenty of more deserving refugees to focus on instead.

If they were 15 when they went. Of course.

But there's been no need to do that because they just came back and no hooha.

Another thing.

For me this isn't about her, not really.

For me it's simple.

She was born raised educated here. Grew up here. Was groomed here. Along with a bunch of other girls (and what's been done about that eh?).

She is British. English. She is as English as me or DH.

And that's it.

Internationally what we did caused outrage. Unsurprisingly. Because rather than handling it like grown ups we looked for a loophole. That Bangladesh says doesn't apply btw.

And decided to palm off someone who is OUR problem. One of OUR citizens. Onto a country that has nothing to do with it, is much well off, with massive problems of it's own related to climate, refugees. Who we expect to do what with exactly? Just turn her loose? Well that sounds like a terrible idea. Prosecute. Her? Has she committed crimes against them? Do they have to get all the evidence from us? Would we even give it to them it may be sensitive etc.

So we decide.
Behaving in a reasonable and grown up way when it comes to international politics/ relationships/ allies doesn't matter to us
Bringing her home and putting her to our justice system is for some reason just not true right thing to do (what message does that send???)
She was 15 and we don't know the circumstances that led her and the other girls to do this which I think is pretty bloody important. Apparently the govt thinks it's not.
She needs to be held up as an example (of what? Our lack of ethics?) rather than any of the grown men who did similar.
The fact she was 15 is is apparently irrelevant. She knew what she was doing. Which is a terrible message. As it supports the pernicious idea that girls of 14 15 'know what they're doing' in all sorts of circs. Not good.

No it's a dick move. The govt are breaking and undermining all sorts of important conventions laws etc to make an example of her for whatever reason.

I would love to know the reason tbh.

'I don't care for whataboutery about other jihadis. Her rights don't trump our safety IMO'

She's more dangerous to us than 300 men?

She's dangerous in prison etc?

Surely she's much more dangerous in countries with fewer resources etc?

I like the idea that the question

Why this girl who went at 15

And not 300 men

Can be dismissed as whataboutery

Is wanting to know that the govt has investigated what was going on at that school/ outside school whataboutery? Or is there a different word to dismiss that ?!

You can write as many walls of text / make as many comparisons as you like but nothing is going to convince me that it's a good idea to let that woman back into the UK.

Sometimes you just know how you feel about something. It seems illogical to not be receptive to the consideration of ideas, but I'd imagine many of the posters on here would feel similar about particular views.

If a bloke came on here and told us he had a convincing argument that men were categorically the superior sex, or that consent doesn't matter in some instances, I'm sure that many posters would know they disagreed before even hearing his thesis. That's how I feel here and elaborate equivalences aren't going to convince me otherwise.

And you say 'OUR' problem.

She's not my problem at all. Well, she might be if she came back here and started planning terror attacks. But where she is right now....no hay problema!

Besides, she's not a British citizen so she's not 'entitled' to anything. 🤷‍♀️

How is she not a British citizen? I mean before we took it away.

This isn't about feelings. It's about principles, consistency, our justice system. How we interact with our international partners and our reputation.

We have always gone on about playing fair. Upholding our laws. Being a nation that has strong values and upholds them. A nation which respects the rule of law. Etc etc etc.

Doing this just chucks it all out the window. It comes across as populist rather than consistent. It undermines trust in us with our allies partners etc. It says that if we feel like it we are happy to chuck out the established protocols. Stick 2 fingers up at countries who behave reasonably. Operate a system where what happens can vary depending on who is involved.

That's a fairly big deal to me.

I feel emotional very angry about things that happen. Certain crimes I feel like lock the fucker up and throw away the key. If one of them got murdered by locals I'd think well you're never going to hurt anyone again. And I can't blame them for doing it.

But I wouldn't want us to execute. And while life should mean forever for well imo quite a lot of bastards. It shouldn't be up to me.

It's not about feelings. I have no idea whether she's regretful or not. I have no idea what she did or didn't do out there. I mean as a person I'm just whatever. Not sorry for her not scared not wanting revenge not angry. I can understand why others feel how they do. The fact she's been offered by govt press as the face of evil when there are loads of men who came back who for sure did stuff, that doesn't seem right. The fact people seem to be happier to have her running about doing whatever in Bangladesh seems bonkers to me. I can't see how that's safer than being in prison here.

But anyway.

No I don't feel anything about her at all tbh.

What I do care about is the values we as a country espouse and seeing them just bunged in the bin due to one sodding person out of hundreds just seems irrational, counter productive and puts us in a terrible light.

No we're not going to agree but my reasons are nothing to do with her iyswim.

Oh sorry and the use of the word entitled is very strange.

Being brought to trial for terrorism offences is hardly a bonus!

Additionally. Ok entitled.

If you believe that the human right to be tried in a fair court etc is in fact an entitlement that may be waived in some circs then I totally disagree.

I don't get why the hell there's not a desire to bring her back, prosecute her for the crimes she committed against US and let her face the punishment that our courts deem appropriate. She will be in prison/ we can keep a close eye on her. Rather than having her gallivanting about with I'd imagine a massive grudge against us.

Do people think our criminal justice system is inadequate
What's the actual problem?

The only thing I feel sad about are the children killed in the Manchester bombing whilst they were having the time of their lives.

She said this attack was "justified".

I don't want her to come back here, I don't want to pay for her to sit comfy in prison for a couple of years because our system is pathetic at sentencing.

She will always be a risk, not one that I would like to take.

The idea is then to have her somewhere there's more severe penalties?

You are angrier with her about Manchester then the man who carried out the bombing?

I'd like to try to understand that because I don't really get that tbh.

And why is she a different case to all the men who have come back?

In the end this is emotional rather than logical? I can understand that.

Is it that she has been presented to the public as the sort of representative of all the things done?

Just looking up the man who bombed Manchester.

It sounds like we totally fucked up. Warning after warning and nothing done.

Anyway this is off topic but thought it was interesting.

'He was known to British security services and police but was not regarded as a high risk, having been linked to petty crime but never flagged up for radical views.[48][68] A community worker told the BBC he had called a hotline five years before the bombing to warn police about Abedi's views and members of Britain's Libyan diaspora said they had "warned authorities for years" about Manchester's Islamist radicalisation.[69][70] Abedi was allegedly reported to authorities for his extremism by five community leaders and family members and had been banned from a mosque;[71][72][73] the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, however, said Abedi was not known to the Prevent anti-radicalisation programme.[74]'

@NiceGerbil

Just looking up the man who bombed Manchester.

It sounds like we totally fucked up. Warning after warning and nothing done.

Anyway this is off topic but thought it was interesting.

'He was known to British security services and police but was not regarded as a high risk, having been linked to petty crime but never flagged up for radical views.[48][68] A community worker told the BBC he had called a hotline five years before the bombing to warn police about Abedi's views and members of Britain's Libyan diaspora said they had "warned authorities for years" about Manchester's Islamist radicalisation.[69][70] Abedi was allegedly reported to authorities for his extremism by five community leaders and family members and had been banned from a mosque;[71][72][73] the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, however, said Abedi was not known to the Prevent anti-radicalisation programme.[74]'

Kind of ironic that on one hand you have @Why2why chiming that "all Muslims want to kill us!" and here this Abedi chap is being reported to the police by mosque leaders, muslim community leaders and his very own family.

Regardless of the Ms. Begum fiasco, I think it's fair to say that the ones who originated this mess should be the ones in the Hague, namely, Bush and Blair. There was no terror threat in Iraq - they created 100k Bin Ladin and their legacy haunts us to this day, and will do for years to come.

@NiceGerbil

Just looking up the man who bombed Manchester.

It sounds like we totally fucked up. Warning after warning and nothing done.

Anyway this is off topic but thought it was interesting.

'He was known to British security services and police but was not regarded as a high risk, having been linked to petty crime but never flagged up for radical views.[48][68] A community worker told the BBC he had called a hotline five years before the bombing to warn police about Abedi's views and members of Britain's Libyan diaspora said they had "warned authorities for years" about Manchester's Islamist radicalisation.[69][70] Abedi was allegedly reported to authorities for his extremism by five community leaders and family members and had been banned from a mosque;[71][72][73] the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, however, said Abedi was not known to the Prevent anti-radicalisation programme.[74]'

This is truly horrifying. Britain’s security services don’t seem to be up to much these days.