Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

CroutonsCroutons

The killers of Jamie Bulger were ten years old when they committed that terrible murder, they were young children.
There is a big difference between a 10 year old and a 15 year old.

No one should get life in prison or the death penalty for decisions they made at 15. She had/ still has some very unpleasant views but does not deserve life in prison for that. Women in ISIS were not as bad as the men. She is unlikely to be as dangerous as a radicalised man. Muslims don’t all reject western values , what a load of far right rubbish.

@stairway

No one should get life in prison or the death penalty for decisions they made at 15. She had/ still has some very unpleasant views but does not deserve life in prison for that. Women in ISIS were not as bad as the men. She is unlikely to be as dangerous as a radicalised man. Muslims don’t all reject western values , what a load of far right rubbish.

So many things wrong with what you've said. Tell that to the victims of crimes committed by 15 year olds.... also, what basis do you have for that comment about the women not being as dangerous as the men. They all seem pretty dangerous to me.

No one should get life in prison or the death penalty for decisions they made at 15

But she didn’t just make decisions at 15. She made them at 16,17,18 and 19. It is the criminal decisions she made as an adult woman that are getting her in trouble.

Women in ISIS were not as bad as the men. She is unlikely to be as dangerous as a radicalised man.

That’s sexist thing to say in this day an age. Especially when we know for a fact that ISIS have been primary facilitators of suicide bombers by constructing bomb vests and sewing teenage “martyrs” into them as well as being suicide bombers themselves. In addition, ISIS also used women snipers to carry out assassinations and to fight alongside the men.

For example, British Female ISIS member, Sally Jones was leader of the secret Anwar al-Awlaki battalion’s female wing. In this role, Jones was responsible for training all European female recruits, or muhajirat, in the use of weapons and tactics. These muhajirat were then trained and instructed to carry out suicide missions in the West.

@andyoldlabour

Why2why

"Moreover all Muslims share a similar rejection of liberal western values"

Blimey, you are not a relative of Tommy Robinson are you?
My wife and her family are Muslim, the ones who have moved here to the UK have fully embraced liberal Western values.
It would have been better if you had said - Radical, Islamic jihadists reject liberal Western values.
Shamima Begum has been radicalised and has been party to the most terrible atrocities.

For your information, I am far from white. Robinson despise people like me.

PlanDeRaccordement, ISIS are sexist though, they have distinct gender roles and the roles women have are not nearly as bad . Very few terrorist attaches are carried out and plotted by women, yes we can all name the odd one but very few really. The ideology means that women don’t get much of a role in the society other than to serve the husband. The reason why Shamima and the Samantha get so much attention is because people find it entertaining and fascinating and in some cases a bit sexy femme fatale type thing.

@stairway

PlanDeRaccordement, ISIS are sexist though, they have distinct gender roles and the roles women have are not nearly as bad . Very few terrorist attaches are carried out and plotted by women, yes we can all name the odd one but very few really. The ideology means that women don’t get much of a role in the society other than to serve the husband. The reason why Shamima and the Samantha get so much attention is because people find it entertaining and fascinating and in some cases a bit sexy femme fatale type thing.

Well yes ISIS is sexist and has strict gender roles, but that doesn’t make the women “less bad” or “less dangerous”

I forgot to mention that many of the cyber warriors, recruiters and fund raisers were women also.

The ideology means that women don’t get much of a role in the society other than to serve the husband..

Some women certainly, but not all. The men were mostly served practically in terms of cooking/cleaning and sexually by the Yazidi slaves they kept. So the women were free to do jihad through suicide bomb plots, assassinations, internal policing (to include on the spot executions), cyber hacking, recruitment, and raising funds. These were all vital roles in ISIS society and critical to their success as they’ve spread and occupied territory.

Isis held slave markets where they bought and sold girls from puberty upwards for sex.

Isn't that sexist?

When they were grooming the multiple girls from the same school (where's the investigation into that) the fact that a lot of what our media says is propaganda lies would have been pushed, this is a standard part of their response. Along with others like Russia etc it's not an unusual tactic).

Served sexually?

Jesus. You mean repeatedly raped.

@NiceGerbil

Served sexually?

Jesus. You mean repeatedly raped.

Yes that’s a given because slaves cannot consent. I was using the posters term of “serve the husband” sorry if that made it seem insensitive.

She was involved in cyber hacking? Eh?

They don't think women should be educated fgs. She had 3 babies in that time. 3. What do you honestly think her role was. Strategy? Come off it.

You're just saying random stuff now I don't know what proof we had of anything she did out there do we? If there is would be interested to see it. Could well have missed something.

Minimising the way Isis view women is an interesting way to make an argument.

I’m still not at all convinced that ISIS respected woman enough to give them any essential role whatsoever and certainly nothing in the league that male recruits were given. There may have been some role in recruitment and morality policing, but I think any roles have been exaggerated to fit a certain fantasy.

I've not caught up with the whole thread at all.

Nothings going to change my view that's she's ours born and raised. We should bring her home and try her. She will get sentenced on the basis of that.

This will mean we know exactly where she is. We don't piss off loads of countries we are on good terms with. We have behaved ethically, taken the high ground if you will. And not treated a woman radicalised at 15 differently to grown men who have done this.

I am starting to wonder if the govt don't want to have to answer the questions that would come up in court.

How come multiple girls from same school?
Why groomed them and how?
Who organised and paid for the flights?
Why were there no questions at the airport when she was leaving?
The actual evidence they have of what she did while out there.

All that important sort of stuff.

I think it's really important to find out what the hell went on. So that we can try and identify possible other targets. Anyone involved in UK or Europe. Etc etc.

Isis held slave markets where they bought and sold girls from puberty upwards for sex. Isn't that sexist?

Not as much as it was ethnic cleansing/religious-based genocide. The slaves were all nonMuslim, and mostly Yazidi, as Islamic law forbids the enslavement of Muslims. Although the slaves were girls and women, this was because ISIS tactics included wholesale slaughter of the boys/men.

As such, the Yazidi slaves were completely separate from the ISIS Muslim women in ISIS society.

@NiceGerbil
She was involved in cyber hacking? Eh?

I did not say Shamina Begum was doing cyber hacking. I do not know if she did. But intelligence agencies have found that many of the recruits that joined ISIS included women who did do cyber warfare for them. Part of cyber warfare included recruiting more young women. And we know from testimony of ISIS brides that many of them were radicalised and recruited by women online, not men.

www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/05/help_wanted_women_as_recruiters_for_isis.html

www.inss.org.il/wp-content/uploads/systemfiles/adkan18_1ENG%20(5)_Hoffman-Schweitzer.pdf

Here is one woman arrested for cyber jihad in which she build kill lists
pjmedia.com/homeland-security/bridget-johnson/2019/03/12/20-year-old-georgia-woman-accused-of-isis-cyber-jihad-n101421

I’m still not at all convinced that ISIS respected woman enough to give them any essential role whatsoever and certainly nothing in the league that male recruits were given

I agree women were limited to supporting roles while men were given the active/battle front roles, I just happen to think that support is essential.

PlanDeRaccordement I think you are being naive if you believe that the teenage girl recruits from western countries played much of a role in ISIS. Of the ones we know the fate of , several ended up being executed trying to escape or killed in bombings. Shamima is lucky to be alive.

Well that’s not what the reports have said regarding Shamina and other radicalised teens from the west. Women didn’t have equal rights in ISIS but that didn’t make their roles any less essential or less guilty.

There was the Al-Khansaa brigade. And Shamina is accused of being a member of it among other things, she certainly wasn’t too young given other ISIS women like Linda Wenzel who joined the around same age as her (15/16) have confessed to it.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-british-women-running-sharia-police-unit-islamic-state-syria-9717510.html

www.rt.com/uk/211791-british-female-jihadi-khansa/

I’ve already posted a lot about women recruiters and cyber jihadists.

This sums up my viewpoint.
“Women have always played a role in war, if not in actual combat then in the vital areas of intelligence gathering, medical care, food preparation and support. ISIS’s vicious campaign to carve out a state ruled by a fundamentalist interpretation of Islamic law is no different, though its strict laws prohibiting mixing between genders has limited women’s presence on the front lines.”

“Women are necessary for a state to function, says Shiraz Maher of the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation. Calls went out for female doctors, nurses and engineers. When ISIS took over the Syrian city of Raqqa in 2013, it required a female security force to ensure that local women complied with Islamic laws of dress and conduct. It needed female police to check women passing through checkpoints, in case they were carrying arms for the opposition.”
time.com/3276567/how-isis-is-recruiting-women-from-around-the-world/

@PlanDeRaccordement

No one should get life in prison or the death penalty for decisions they made at 15

But she didn’t just make decisions at 15. She made them at 16,17,18 and 19. It is the criminal decisions she made as an adult woman that are getting her in trouble.

Do you think women got a free choice once they were there? Or men for that matter.

I still haven't seen an explanation for the Kurds, Syria or Bangladesh being responsible for dealing with her. How come Britain can just wash it's hands?

@Why2why

Teenage girls can commit crimes and can generally do bad things, willingly and knowingly. Do you bellyache over the teenage boys who get locked up?

@NiceGerbil I’m not sure what your are talking about. Women are oppressed all over the world including here. However, you cannot view women’s oppression only through your western lens.

I feel many boys are treated unfairly. As the mother of mixed race kids I worried for my sons. Not sure if I bellyache though, you can still think something is wrong without involving your bell.

Christ...talk about picking the wrong battle!

Fight for girls' schooling in Afganistan but not for Begum.

AICM there’s no need to fight for girls schooling in Afghanistan under Taliban rule as women have no role there outside the house and female healthcare is not a taliban priority. So it doesn’t really matter if women there are unable to read or write under the new regime.

@AICM

Christ...talk about picking the wrong battle!

Fight for girls' schooling in Afganistan but not for Begum.

Most people are capable of caring about, being interested in or fighting for more than one thing at a time.