Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

I'm surprised that in areas where the law says girls of 12 13 etc are old enough for marriage/sex informs your view of what is ok or not.

You think that some sorts of girls, in some groups or countries. Girls become adults earlier than 16?

That's an interesting view.

I don't agree with it but there you go.

Certainly it's been in law in some countries (maybe still is) that girls become adults in law at 12 13 etc. And boys become adults in law at 16 17 etc.

That's a view you think is more suitable?

@NiceGerbil

I'm really interested in the many people in Bangladesh who share her beliefs.

In this in assuming the poster meant Isis's beliefs.

It’s a Muslim country with many extremists. Moreover all Muslims share a similar rejection of liberal western values. Not all Muslims are extremist but (1) there is a common belief that binds all together and (2) in Bangladesh there are Muslim fundamentalist more so than in the UK unless you think Bangladesh is immune from this.

However, Shamima did not declare war against what Bangladesh stands for. But she most certainly was opposed to Britain, Britain’s presence in the Middle East, etc.

'Moreover all Muslims share a similar rejection of liberal western values'

You mean everywhere? I'm assuming not and you mean Bangladesh?

Why does their constitution say otherwise?

'Bangladesh will be governed in line with the spirit of the Constitution of Medina.[5][6] But at the same time, the Constitution of Bangladesh calls secularism one of the four fundamental principles of the original Constitution of Bangladesh.[7] Despite having Islam as the state religion, Bangladesh is mostly governed by secular laws, set up during the times when the country was ruled by the British Crown.[8] The constitution also states that "the State shall ensure equal status and equal right in the practice of the Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and other religions".[9] "Freedom of religion" is its basic structure guaranteed by Bangladeshi constitution in which it calls for equal rights to all its citizens irrespective of their religious differences and it also bans discrimination on the grounds of religion in various platforms.'

'But she most certainly was opposed to Britain, Britain’s presence in the Middle East, etc.'

Loads of people are opposed to plenty of the west's actions in the middle East including the UK's.

I was opposed for example to the recent shitshow caused by the USA sudden seemingly unplanned withdrawal from Afghanistan. They should have consulted with allies and planned it properly.

Plenty of people think that.

The other issue with when ^ that sort of thing happens is that it creates bad feeling amongst people in that country who are so badly impacted. And that bad feeling can be exploited.

Given that people think she is dangerous (I think?) and that's a reason for not wanting her back.

How is it beneficial in any way to hand her off to a country that she has never been to and does not speak the language IE a really difficult position.

And one that I doubt has any charges against her. Given none of this was to do with them.

If people think she's dangerous then how will putting her in that position (which would very much harden the feelings that people believe she still has) and free to do whatever in a country which is not well off, is enormous, and has massive issues of it's own to deal with.

Wouldn't it be better to put her in prison here assuming she is found guilty?

Women of any culture or race are losing their rights all over the world. Going back to basics and it's horrific.

Exactly. The right not to be threatened at gunpoint by folk like Shamima Begum.

@Schmoana

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

No no no this is not misogynistic or islamaphobic ( as mentioned below) She CHOSE to leave her family to become a terrorist. You can't just decide oops not for me anymore And pop back home, made your bed!!!

Yes they are.

All over the world including countries that are seen as progressive etc.

Who takes their rights?

Men. Men run the show. Yes some women support them. But it comes from men.

300 men was it come back after fighting for terrorist groups overseas. Adults.. Who went on the promise of a purpose and a fight and a community and often a 'bride'.

Not a whisper about them.

Who is the face of the evils of Islamic fundamentalism in the UK at the mo? Well it's a young woman of course.

'She CHOSE to leave her family to become a terrorist. You can't just decide oops not for me anymore And pop back home, made your bed!!!'

Be brought back to the country she was born raised educated and radicalised in. To be tried in a court of law. And we can keep an eye on her.

All those men got that.

In what way is turning her over to Bangladesh better for us? I don't get it. We have the resources etc to deal with her. And her crimes were against us.

Actually that's a good point.

Those who are pleased the govt have done this.

What do you actually want to happen to her. Imagine/ hope will happen? You must have s reason more than just not wanting her here and tried and etc.

Some of you simply do not understand the context of religion. Women too can hold beliefs in a higher power without the coercion of men.

Women are not helpless beings unable to exercise free will unless it fits into some western liberal ideal about what they think women’s free will should lead them to do and choose.

The only way a woman can be or think is not just the white woman’s idea of what it is to be a woman exercising free will.

Please understand that your ideals are not that of every woman everywhere. And don’t tell people that their religion is bad for them or suppresses them, etc. That your way is the right way for a woman to be or think.

@NiceGerbil

Actually that's a good point.

Those who are pleased the govt have done this.

What do you actually want to happen to her. Imagine/ hope will happen? You must have s reason more than just not wanting her here and tried and etc.

Shamima looks well, better than many here is this country. Nothing should “happen” to her save for her to confront the consequences of her actions and make a life in the place she so desired to be.

@Why2why

Some of you simply do not understand the context of religion. Women too can hold beliefs in a higher power without the coercion of men.

Women are not helpless beings unable to exercise free will unless it fits into some western liberal ideal about what they think women’s free will should lead them to do and choose.

The only way a woman can be or think is not just the white woman’s idea of what it is to be a woman exercising free will.

Please understand that your ideals are not that of every woman everywhere. And don’t tell people that their religion is bad for them or suppresses them, etc. That your way is the right way for a woman to be or think.

When I read the first bit of your post my immediate thought was taleban in Afghanistan.

It's a very sweeping statement you've made and I'm thinking that you mean. Not sure.

It's a point about women in the UK or people in the UK. Not being in a position to comment on the position of women around the world as it's. I think the popular term is cultural imperialism?

Are some situations not so heinous and oppressive that feeling it's wrong is acceptable? Even given that some/ many women in that situation would say that support it?

Off the top of my head. Women facing life imprisonment or death for being raped as it's seen as infidelity? Young women/ girls being kidnapped and taken as 'brides'. Girls schools being bombed?

I'm not sure I have understood. Is there a line for you where it becomes reasonable for a white person to see something going on in the world to non white people as awful/ an atrocity?

And why the white/ not white divide? Western Europe looked away while ethnic cleansing was carried out in Croatia.

Isn't the white/ everyone else divide a bit inadequate?

'Shamima looks well, better than many here is this country. Nothing should “happen” to her save for her to confront the consequences of her actions and make a life in the place she so desired to be.'

Confronting the consequences of her actions would be best achieved by bringing her home and prosecuting her.

Rather than... Her not facing a court?

Don't get it.

What does better than many here in this country mean?

That's a very odd comment!

I feel for her. We all know about the dangers of teen grooming. Some of us are trained to look for the signs, be sympathetic, understand how easily it can happen. And yet, here it's happened and she's being utterly villainised. I myself was groomed albeit not by Isis, and I considered myself a savvy teen. The Bulger killers have gotten off more lightly than her: they were calculated killers and not much younger than her at the time, they've got full anonymity and one of them is living his life potentially with a new family with no further repercussions.
This girl was groomed by a group of paedophiles. Promised the earth, made to feel part of something she didn't understand. Bore two children, both of whom have died and she was indoctrinated into a terrorist cult. She made a grave error, huge. Bring her back, detain her, rehabilitate her, see if she can give some Intel. My main worry about bringing her back however is she hasn't been afforded the same anonymity and so is a sitting duck.
If she stays where she is she is a target. If she comes home, she's a target. I really really feel for her.

@Why2why

Some of you simply do not understand the context of religion. Women too can hold beliefs in a higher power without the coercion of men.

Women are not helpless beings unable to exercise free will unless it fits into some western liberal ideal about what they think women’s free will should lead them to do and choose.

The only way a woman can be or think is not just the white woman’s idea of what it is to be a woman exercising free will.

Please understand that your ideals are not that of every woman everywhere. And don’t tell people that their religion is bad for them or suppresses them, etc. That your way is the right way for a woman to be or think.

Except, she wasn't a woman. She was a teenage girl

I'm really interested to hear what why2why feels about the points I raised about the oppression of women elsewhere in the world.

Her point is essentially cultural relativism. I've seen that used by men in the UK to explain why here the age of consent is 16 but it's fine for girls aged 12 13 to be married elsewhere in the world because it's their culture innit.

@NiceGerbil

'She CHOSE to leave her family to become a terrorist. You can't just decide oops not for me anymore And pop back home, made your bed!!!'

Be brought back to the country she was born raised educated and radicalised in. To be tried in a court of law. And we can keep an eye on her.

All those men got that.

In what way is turning her over to Bangladesh better for us? I don't get it. We have the resources etc to deal with her. And her crimes were against us.

Cos keeping an eye on people on the terror watch list has ended so well In the past ....... 😫💔

Teenage girls can commit crimes and can generally do bad things, willingly and knowingly. Do you bellyache over the teenage boys who get locked up?

@NiceGerbil I’m not sure what your are talking about. Women are oppressed all over the world including here. However, you cannot view women’s oppression only through your western lens.

Confronting the consequences of her actions would be best achieved by bringing her home and prosecuting her. Rather than... Her not facing a court? Don't get it.

She can be tried in a court of law in Syria like other formerly British ISIS brides and probably get life in prison. She could go to Bangladesh, but as she said in her interview she refuses to go because they’d give her the death penalty. She only is begging for special treatment of a British Court because she thinks she will get a lighter sentence than life in prison or death.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Confronting the consequences of her actions would be best achieved by bringing her home and prosecuting her. Rather than... Her not facing a court? Don't get it.

She can be tried in a court of law in Syria like other formerly British ISIS brides and probably get life in prison. She could go to Bangladesh, but as she said in her interview she refuses to go because they’d give her the death penalty. She only is begging for special treatment of a British Court because she thinks she will get a lighter sentence than life in prison or death.

Yes exactly. So she’s mouthing the words with no conviction behind them.

@Washeduponthebeach
Yes. She was unremorseful and defended the enslavement, rape and murder of the Yazidi, she defended the Manchester bombing, she approved of beheadings of westerners because it was “protecting Islam”. She said all these things when she thought she could get away with her actions as an 18/19 yr old woman simply because she joined at 15.

Now that two years have passed and she knows Bangladesh would give her death penalty and that Syria would probably give her life in prison, only now she says she is sorry. She’s not sorry she did the crimes she did, she’s just trying to get away with as much as she can.

Why2why

"Moreover all Muslims share a similar rejection of liberal western values"

Blimey, you are not a relative of Tommy Robinson are you?
My wife and her family are Muslim, the ones who have moved here to the UK have fully embraced liberal Western values.
It would have been better if you had said - Radical, Islamic jihadists reject liberal Western values.
Shamima Begum has been radicalised and has been party to the most terrible atrocities.