Plymouth mass shooter was an incel

[FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]

Reports say that Jake Davison, 23, who killed six people yesterday in Plymouth including himself, was part of the Incel movement. He's had a YouTube channel moaning about how I one wanted to have sex with him.

Well I'm not surprised unfortunately but the question is will ANYTHING be done about the violent misogyny that is ever prevalent these days from these types of men? Will mass action be taken against these incel groups the way extremist groups were targeted after other terrorist attacks? Or will this be fobbed off as a lone wolf and we will be told that men who despise women to the point of becoming violent are nothing to worry about?

Will women start being protected?

Place your bets please. I've got a funny feeling the answer is 'no'

The men were simply unfortunately caught up in that (probably, I’m assuming here that he did not know them).

Incels hate men they perceive to be more successful with women than they are. Which would mean pretty much all of them, barring those who are gay).

The manosphere contains - or did - such pleasantly-titled sub groups as PUAHate (pick-up artist).

The manifestoes and increasingly frenzied videos left behind him by Elliot Rodger, who seems to be revered by these types, clearly spelled out his hatred for these men, who he considered fair game for his 'day of retribution' as well.

Clearly the motivation for killing men is also bound up with their hatred of women. It's all driven by misogyny.

@Sparklfairy

That's interesting *@TedsFederationRep*. Do you think that if he'd attacked only women it would be taken more seriously as terror-related? Incels might fundamentally hate women, but many also hate 'successful' (in whatever form that takes) men.

From what I can gather, it's women they fear and hate and yet it's the attention of women they crave and demand as their right. Other men are incidental and only in terms of whether they are more or less successful with women.

My fear is that because women are the primary focus and target of incels with a gun and a grudge, it has not until now been considered properly and seriously as a form of extremism.

I don't think that answers your question but as someone who lived under what amounted to a regional curfew for six years during the Yorkshire Ripper years, it's the best I can do. I'd like to know what Julie Bindel will say about it.

I wonder if it’s a lack of emotional development, or not forming proper “in person” relationships (in the broadest sense) and living far too much online.

I think that many of us learn to find attractiveness in other people - a lovely smile or attractive hands which transcend other more ordinary features. I think it's much more common to experience this in real life and for it to be a gradual process. The problem with setting Keira Knightly etc as your baseline is that it means 99% of women won't be acceptable to you.

It reminds me of a TV programme I saw years ago about couples and their relationships. A middle aged man with greasy grey hair in a ponytail laid into his wife. 'The problem with her,' he said 'is that she's let herself go.'

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

The men were simply unfortunately caught up in that (probably, I’m assuming here that he did not know them).

Incels hate men they perceive to be more successful with women than they are. Which would mean pretty much all of them, barring those who are gay).

The manosphere contains - or did - such pleasantly-titled sub groups as PUAHate (pick-up artist).

The manifestoes and increasingly frenzied videos left behind him by Elliot Rodger, who seems to be revered by these types, clearly spelled out his hatred for these men, who he considered fair game for his 'day of retribution' as well.

Clearly the motivation for killing men is also bound up with their hatred of women. It's all driven by misogyny.

I understand the concept, the ‘Chad’ as they refer to successfully sexually active men.

No idea if this was the case here, specifically, or if it were just overspill of the violence- though yes of course - his misogyny is why he was to enraged with the world in the first place, it would appear (based on his online presence).
Absolutely horrific and absolutely inexcusable.

#makemisogynyahatecrime

More from Joan Smith in the The Guardian today.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/15/extreme-misogyny-ideaology-plymouth-killer-terrorist?

It is terrorism but it's white men so the white men in power wash their hands of it.

There is already blaming the women over on Twitter. Dr Andrew Gatley seem to be a fake (now suspended) account but even so someone thought those thoughts and posted them.

Vorpal I don't think those views, albeit from a fake account this time, are particularly rare. Have increasingly heard men bang on about how men are so hard done by in today's society. It's the message put out by the manosphere that Laura B describes so well. Extreme views fed up through levels to where they gain a veneer of respectability and authenticity. It seems to be working, here we are and the same manosphere celebrates a 'victory' and uses that to increase the message.

Unherd yesterday has an article by Naama Kates, who has done a lot of research on incels, saying that the media reports that the crime was an incel action have probably been premature, and also seem to be garbled in terms of reflecting what really goes on in incel websits and such.

unherd.com/2021/08/what-the-media-gets-wrong-about-incels/

Thanks for that link, SmokedDuck. I also thought the Joan Smith article Lynnikins posted was very good too. They suggest that there are real risks to society's tendency to underplay male violence and compartmentalise it into something that is exclusive to a small group of far right incels.

That article is interesting for sure but I actually think it is not the best take on this.

Despite them saying they researched incels a lot, I think they have kind of missed the point of the fact that he is at odds with the "incel community". He did not identify with other males but based on the few small snippets in the article, it sounds like his actual problem was that he did not like the way incels treated eachother. No one hates incels more than incels, the way they drag eachother down as worthless unloveable outsiders is awful.

It does however sound like a lot of his ideas of women were shaped by the incel philosophy. Black pill is also not a separate or opposite concept to inceldom like the author seems to suggest. And also, while it's true incels are clearly not all working towards some large revolutionary or organised type of violence like many ideologically driven groups, they absolutely do idolise those among their ranks who do go out and commit horrific acts like these.

The strangest thing to me about incels is that there is actively no constructive ideology. There are no philosophies or world views to work to realise, there is no theory of how the world should or could work. They do not rally around their principles and organise to take action like the IRA, Taliban etc.

Any reformative ideas they do talk about are clearly fantasy even amongst themselves. It's a very strange, limp form of terrorism and radicalisation, but ironically has the potential to be the most harmful. They are "malignant moaners", causelessly hating others purely for the purpose of hate and nothing else.

I'm not saying you can reduce someone down to being solely "an incel". I'm sure this young man had a lot of pain and struggle in his life apart from feeling sexually frustrated. It's clear he considered himself an outsider from society completely, not just with women. But we should not minimise the role that this awful, toxic online environment played in his unravelling.

@VorpalSword probably just an incel. They get very excited by other incel attacks. Makes me sick.

It's all our own fault obviously

twitter.com/forwomenscot/status/1428036912820936712?s=21

[quote OhHolyJesus]It's all our own fault obviously

twitter.com/forwomenscot/status/1428036912820936712?s=21[/quote]
And coming from India Willoughby. No surprise it was somebody born male that would say that.

What is abundantly clear from that clip is that Willoughby isn't that bothered about incels and attacks on women. It's a platform to shoehorn in Willoughby's obvious dislike for radical feminists! And perhaps women more generally. Willoughby also hasn't got the faintest idea why the word "radical" isn't a synonym for "extreme".

Good on Shona Craven for not letting such a ridiculous statement go, and for not getting deterred by the rude interjection by Willoughby who was allowed a decent long time to speak without being interrupted by the other guests.

Of course they aren’t bothered.

I however, when it comes to the dangers faced by women, will choose to listen to people who don’t order their genitalia from a catalogue.

If you listen to the end of the segment from Seven Days BBC Scotland India jumps in again , trying to imply that because Korean women have a derogatory sign for a small penis that this might be seen as incitement and reason for male violence against women. The other journalist shot this down. Always women's fault it would seem according to India.

Well that comment about Korean women and their gesture is another example of “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

I am appalled by this horrific event.

I have not researched the incel movment in any depth but have researched some very dark corners of ancilliary and related networks, specifically the pick up artist (PUA) movement and its relationship to cults generally and sex cults, wellness cults and MLM cults specifically.

I also took the time to download and watch the perp's videos in which he describes his beliefs and opnions about various things. I have some thoughts about this.

No time to write more here at the moment however I am just bookmarking.

I would also like to say that, given the network connections between the incel movement and the PUA movment and various cults including MLM, far-right and sex cults, it is clear that there are network connections between the incel movement and politically orientated movements.

I understand that a significant theme is that of corrupt psychotherapists, hypnotherapists, NLP practitioners, psychologists, psychiatirists and various "wellness" practitioners including sexual health and sexual wellness "experts".

The manipulation and abuse of vulnerable people is a significant theme within all of these networks as it is in the anti-vaxx movement

I will post more when I am able to

@334bu

If you listen to the end of the segment from Seven Days BBC Scotland India jumps in again , trying to imply that because Korean women have a derogatory sign for a small penis that this might be seen as incitement and reason for male violence against women. The other journalist shot this down. Always women's fault it would seem according to India.

Identifies as a woman but can't identify with women. India's birth sex is showing.

Certainly doesn't empathise with women.

Perhaps they can choose a small amount of empathy from a catalogue as well.

I asked our head of the cps if sex is a protected characteristic then why isn't misogyny a hate crime. He said it was a fair question and he would put it to the DPP. I heard on a radio station a few weeks later that the law commission were investigating this. It was done as an online survey, with regards to misogyny it seemed via the Scottish government. Though it had to be balanced in terms of misandry as well. I haven't heard anything further I dont know if others may have done?

@SquirryTheSquirrel

The incel movement infuriates me - chiefly because it presents as 'no women will have sex with us' but what it actually means is 'no women of the level of attractiveness we deem worthy will have sex with us'.

Most people - male/female/LBTQ - would like it if perfect people, physically and psychologically, were queuing up to have sex with them. That isn't the reality for most - some level of compromise is normal.

The incels have set up a fantasy world where everyone is having great sex, all the time, except them, and then rail against it being unfair. No, it's not unfair - it's real life for most people, including women.

I had to reply to this, because this is a bizarre misconception; that there is someone will have sex with every man, if they simply drop their standards low enough.

From personal experience, I know this is not true. No girls at school ever expressed an interest in me, ever, so losing my virginity during my school days was out of the question. Nothing improved as I got older, unfortunately. I thought sex would inevitably come from a bar or a club, but it turns out the women there weren't interested either and sometimes I would get laughed at.

So the answer then would surely come from social circles. Except that my social circles have deteriorated over the years and I don't really have any friends, because I haven't kept in touch with them. I have developed quite bad depression due to abuse I experienced in previous jobs, and I really hate the thought of going out to spend time with other people. I function well enough to go to work, but for me, the thought of socialising is now horrible.

Just to note however that I don't identify with the incel movement at all. I really don't care that much for sex, and I am completely accepting of people not wanting to have sex with me or a relationship. I also think that attacking other people is effectively forcing your own problems onto them, which I find abhorrent. I wanted to reply though because I wanted to clarify there are people who genuinely can't find sex. This seemed to be the case for me in my early 20s at least.