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Feminism: chat

Is anyone else looking at Afghanistan?

284 replies

PickUpAPepper · 08/07/2021 17:45

I'm unhappy about the abandonment of these women in Afghanistan. Johnson's speech is the usual male-centred self-justificatory claptrap. Freedom, justice, equality and even terrorism - all of it only means anything when men or money are involved. These women deserve freedom from the Taliban, and support to find it.

news.sky.com/story/i-dont-want-them-to-die-bitterness-resentment-and-fear-as-afghanistans-new-generation-left-to-fend-for-themselves-12349139

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memberofthewedding · 16/08/2021 13:13

The truth is various powers have been fighting to bring their versions of civilisation "freedom, justice, equality etc" to Afghanistan for over 200 years and it's always been a total failure. Horrible though it is (and it is, and not only for women) this is a society where the people need to be left to work it out for themselves. Pax Britannia doesnt work here.

This is so true. It is monumentally arrogant of "the West" to presume to establish democracy in countries which have no tradition of it. Countries like Afghanistan, Iraq etc are tribal and traditional. The notion of a united country is a foreign one. To them it is loyalty to the tribe and to the (male) ruler which counts. The system is what is is and who are we to impose our standards upon these people?

We should never have gone into Afghanistan in the first place.

PickUpAPepper · 16/08/2021 13:33

Agreed. We had better start begging Turkey, China, the Russians, UAE and India to come clean up our mess. No doubt lessons will be learned, just as in Iraq.

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RedToothBrush · 16/08/2021 13:40

We should never have gone into Afghanistan in the first place.

This.

And Iraq.

I protested.

I lost faith in Blair over it.

It was always blindly obvious.

There. Was. Never. An. Exit. Strategy. That. Was. Viable.

No one learnt the lessons of Vietnam or Korea.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2021 13:41

Worse will follow on the West.

We went into Afghanistan to disarm the Taliban.

We achieved the opposite.

charliebrown59 · 16/08/2021 13:56

Regardless we did go in, and this exit is foolish in the extreme.

Terrible scenes of people falling off the plane wheels.

PickUpAPepper · 16/08/2021 14:12

This is the worst possible exit, I anger with that too. Since we did go in they deserve better than this. If we’ve lost the airports it is already a disaster.

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PickUpAPepper · 16/08/2021 14:12

What an autocorrect!

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Peregrina · 16/08/2021 14:31

We went into Afghanistan to disarm the Taliban.

We went in to supposedly hunt down Bin Laden.

Marmaladeagain · 16/08/2021 14:36

From US point of view it was entirely about Bin Laden behing handed over and there was no human rights angle to consider for Afghanistan. The US people on both sides have been majority in favour of withdrawal for a long time.

The attached timeline is useful. Yes Trump started the process but it is entirely on Biden now. Trump below showing some reflection on whether his instinctive reaction was correct etc. on how to withdraw.

www.cfr.org/timeline/us-war-afghanistan

Biden has not reacted to developing events at all and stuck to being seen to commit to a stance and timeline. Who knows whether Trump would have continued along the same path Biden has stuck to despite so many voices pleading the opposite?

"August 21, 2017
Trump Signals Prolonged Afghan War
President Trump outlines his Afghanistan policy in an address to troops in Arlington, VA, saying that though his “original instinct was to pull out,” he will instead press ahead with an open-ended military commitment to prevent the emergence of “a vacuum for terrorists.” Differentiating his policy from Obama’s, Trump says decisions about withdrawal will be based on “conditions on the ground,” rather than arbitrary timelines. He invites India to play a greater role in rebuilding Afghanistan while castigating Pakistan for harboring insurgents. He also pledges to loosen restrictions on combat even as the United Nations reports an uptick [PDF] in civilian casualties caused by Afghan and coalition air strikes. A political settlement with the Taliban, Trump says, is far off."

Marmaladeagain · 16/08/2021 14:43

Yes Peregrina - it was because Bin Laden wasn't being handed over. If some deal had been struck where Bin Laden was handed over the Taliban would have continued unhindered - it was never about Taliban. It was a byproduct of US hunting Bin Laden that the Taliban were declawed for a time, but now back.

sergeilavrov · 16/08/2021 23:11

Hi everyone, it’s my first break after however many days I last posted. Spent most of the last few days in the south getting people out via planes. Now back in Kabul city itself assisting with getting high-risk Afghans to the airport safely, a much more organised airport than was shown yesterday in the media. There has been a lot of confusion, and selfishness. Britain should run ATC: they’re trusted, calm, have the expertise - but US wants to control, which is panicking other countries and delaying their aircraft. US need to think outside the box: instead of boasting about shoving 600 people on a 300 seat plane, work with the UAE and get their A380s making short runs to a neighbouring country where you can use local and evacuated embassy staff to organise and process on the ground in safety. That’s 850 people a trip, on a much shorter flight than to the Gulf. We estimate that could clear 10,000 people in 12 hours using 10 planes. While they do now have a system, it’s not the most efficient system, and they’re still trying to process visas partly on the ground of an airport half controlled by the Taliban. India and Italy refused anyone who wasn’t on their lists, and left with half/ two thirds empty aircraft - so refuse them landing permission! Only those who are willing to engage with pushing as many arses on planes as possible should be using the limited resources available.

I appreciate that there is a lot of praise of ambo, but he wasted an entire day of the SAS who could have returned after he was out and helped get people out from the city - a job I’m now doing with a team of only six people (a standard single unit for this work is 8), at significantly more risk than when they could have started. Sometimes what seems brave and heroic is a vast waste of resources that does more for the ego/public image than the people who matter. Equally, it meant the UK government stuck with a policy of visa processing on the ground for too long due to his assurances of being able to ‘manage it’. Raab also needs to stop increasing presence 200 troops at a time, and instead take a pause and reflect on the amount of troops the military say they need to secure the airport properly and get everyone out from across the country. Send 1.5x that number. Getting troops out is easy if drawdown plans are followed, civilians are difficult. Relying on the Americans to stay after they get whoever they care about out is a mistake that will cost lives.

I know there is some discussion of why so many men at the airport. This is largely due to the way visas are processed: the person who worked for the organisation has to make the application/be processed first; and then when landed, they can apply for their family to follow. While countries insisted on the visa process being followed, it made sense for men to go first - especially as travelling through Kabul is dangerous. There are lots of women/children at the airport, but they are waiting inside.

I don't work for the UK govt, but desperately am trying to get some young women (they founded a successful feminist NGO) visas/permission to go there, so if anyone has contacts they don't mind me reaching out to, please let me know. They're incredible young women, and I don't want them to die because they are a 'lower priority' category. I'm happy to make a large donation to cover all costs if there is a group that can get them to safety.

notimagain · 16/08/2021 23:34

@sergeilavrov

Interesting post, thanks…

“ Britain should run ATC: they’re trusted, calm, have the expertise - but US wants to control, which is panicking other countries and delaying their aircraft.”

US controllers certainly used to control Kabul upper airspace and there is value in having experience in the enviroment.

“US need to think outside the box: instead of boasting about shoving 600 people on a 300 seat plane, work with the UAE and get their A380s making short runs to a neighbouring country where you can use local and evacuated embassy staff to organise and process on the ground in safety.”

I’m not going rush off and try and find and look at the numbers at this time of night and am happy to be further informed but I wouldn’t just assume you can chuck A380’s into a place like Kabul…(It’s an aircraft that runs into issues with taxiway, runway strength and geometry which prevent it from using many airports around the world)

Also TBH given the apparent uncertainty about the military situation I can see the reason why the preference might be for military types with certain capabilities and equipment airliners simply don’t have.

Whatever the details good luck over the next few days.

IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls · 16/08/2021 23:49

.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 17/08/2021 01:02

chng.it/YY25dgRPRq

Sharing this as the wording is simple and I used it as a template to write to my MP.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 17/08/2021 01:06

Sergei, I'm having a think about who to contact for your young women- Scottish refugee Council would potentially help if the home office would sort visas and the Scottish government follows through on their keenness to welcome refugees.

Bureaucracy is so slow usually though - usually there needs to be a scheme in place like the vulnerable person relocation scheme which required you to reach a different country first, and get the red cross to help with joining the scheme.

Women for women international seem to be trying to create safe spaces for women locally.

Sorry if this is telling you things you already know.

ChattyLion · 17/08/2021 08:18

I’ve no expertise to add, just my horror.
I will write to my MP to ask the British Government to do all it can to support Afghan women and children specifically.
BBC is reporting that a UK government scheme will be outlined that will be similar to the one for Syrian nationals. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58238490
If anyone has suggestions to make for wording emails that would be helpful. For starters:

this link from Metro newspaper offers a link to template letters and talking points and names relevant charities in need of support:
metro.co.uk/2021/08/16/afghanistan-what-can-we-do-to-help-from-donating-to-raising-awareness-15097412/

this link from Marie Claire magazine offers a link to a template letter for MPs and a list of charities to support:
www.marieclaire.co.uk/reports/afghanistan-conflict-how-to-help-745850

Contact details for MPs are here: members.parliament.uk/FindYourMP

Those of us lucky enough to be living in the UK can at least let our MPs know that we, and our friends and families, are urging the UK government on to help civilians in Afghanistan on our behalf. The more of us that can make contact with our MPs now, today over this issue, hopefully the more productive this recall of Parliament tomorrow morning will be.

FlorisFigure · 17/08/2021 08:36

Tobias Elwood has tweeted that tomorrow’s debate will be a One Line Whip as in “yeah, turn up if you want, whatevs.” So, it is imperative that you contact your MP this morning to put pressure on them to act in a humanitarian way.

ChattyLion · 17/08/2021 08:38

Christ. Right, I’m emailing immediately.

PickUpAPepper · 17/08/2021 09:32

That whip really emphasises that women and children are not important to them. Biden of course is saying it openly. Yet imo the lack of resistance really hammers home the old point about how supporting men is wasted effort, and only supporting women creates investment and lasting change.

There will be post mortems (literal ones AngrySad ) about this.

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charliebrown59 · 17/08/2021 09:35

Joanna Cherry will do a good job I expect.

I'm furious with the 'according to local capacity' commitment to nothing from the UK but this exit crisis was caused by Biden and his administration.

PickUpAPepper · 17/08/2021 10:05

Wholesale copy and paste from @Aplone on one of the AIBU threads, hope she doesn’t mind. It’s an extra place to keep it.

Aplone

Have finished reading the thread now and have collated the charities and ideas suggested. Thank you all xx

charities
Turquoise Mountain
Women for Afghan Women
CARE
Rukhshana Media
womenforwomen.org.uk
www.street-child.co.uk/afghanistan
Linda Norgrove foundation
ICRC (Red Cross)

UNICEF and OCHA though these are related to the UN, which has a horrible track record with its "peacekeepers"

Also -
support for refugees in camps in Pakistan / Iran

twitter thread with suggestions on how to support mobile.twitter.com/KateOfHysteria/status/1427141576980115456

write to MPs re support for free passage for refugees and sign the petition www.change.org/p/priti-patel-call-on-the-uk-government-to-resettle-20-000-afghan-refugees

Thanks for all the comments saying how all charities "on the ground" are having to work with / via the Taliban. Just horrible.

I read an article earlier which mentioned a family unable to afford a taxi to Kabul, so they sold their dead son's widow to pay for the fare! And this was in order to escape the Taliban. I can't even.

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Peregrina · 17/08/2021 10:26

Tobias Elwood has tweeted that tomorrow’s debate will be a One Line Whip as in “yeah, turn up if you want, whatevs.”

Shows you what the Government really thinks. Recall Parliament to be shown to be doing something, but don't let it spoil your hols, chaps.

I wonder also what type of reception Afghan refugees will get in a UK with a Home Office led by Priti Patel.

FlorisFigure · 17/08/2021 18:28

Ha! The press conference. “Women will still have their rights within the limits of Islam.” That’s zilch then.

Steakandcheeseplease · 17/08/2021 18:34

@tzarine

i was heartened to see these women www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/07/armed-afghan-women-take-to-streets-in-show-of-defiance-against-taliban

but i fear what will happen when taliban takes over

They will all be dead. I look at that picture and really worry for them. They have bloody guts I'll give them that but they are in too small numbers to ever change this outcome. I hate that the Guardian has printed this picture. Anyone that has been speaking on social media will be killed. A women's right activist has just been on. the TV saying the Women cyclist team will have to go in to hiding as they will be coming for them.

How can the world sit in silence and watch this play out.

This is a real life Handsmaid Tale happening right now.

Steakandcheeseplease · 17/08/2021 18:34

@Peregrina

Tobias Elwood has tweeted that tomorrow’s debate will be a One Line Whip as in “yeah, turn up if you want, whatevs.”

Shows you what the Government really thinks. Recall Parliament to be shown to be doing something, but don't let it spoil your hols, chaps.

I wonder also what type of reception Afghan refugees will get in a UK with a Home Office led by Priti Patel.

Yes I was thinking about that.