Is anyone else looking at Afghanistan?

[PickUpAPepper]

I'm unhappy about the abandonment of these women in Afghanistan. Johnson's speech is the usual male-centred self-justificatory claptrap. Freedom, justice, equality and even terrorism - all of it only means anything when men or money are involved. These women deserve freedom from the Taliban, and support to find it.

news.sky.com/story/i-dont-want-them-to-die-bitterness-resentment-and-fear-as-afghanistans-new-generation-left-to-fend-for-themselves-12349139

It does seem hopeless, doesn't it?

It's so many kinds of wrong, but I really don't see what can be done. Because the west has tried military force and it's failed repeatedly

Has there been a leader, since Ahmad Shah Massoud (leader of the Northern Alliance, assassinated 2 days before 9/11, timing surely no coincidence) who has stood a chance of holding enough of the country together to suppress the taliban?

I heard two women discussing this on Radio5live. One Shabnam Nasimi - Conservative Friends of Afghanistan. They were saying that the taliban aim to eliminate women from even being seen in public, never mind working or being educated. The kidnapping and forced marriage is nothing less than slavery. The speakers were quite restained in saying Biden's response is disingenuous. Are Democratic senators protesting in the USA?

Has anyone got any information on how or who is arming and backing the taliban forces?

It is absolutely appalling. But what is happening in Afghanistan is not the fault of the British government. Let’s turn our attention to the wickedness of the Taliban, those who prop them up and Afganistan’s neighbours which are choosing to look the other way.

it is frightening and it must be horrendous for the people to see their precarious peace/stability once again disappear.
it feels like an abandonment- because it is.

It's horrendous. I'm so sad for the people of Afghanistan, especially the women and girls.

That Mail article is sickening.

Feel utterly powerless.

Those poor people. I have no words.

It’s devastating but what can we do?

We (the west) have been there for twenty years. The second the American military withdraw the taliban are back.

We cannot offer an indefinite military presence whilst endless western soldiers are slaughtered in the name of futility.

This needs reaching to the core and the only people who can achieve that are the Afghanistan government with the help and intervention of the United Nations. I said it on another thread but I don’t think a humanitarian appeal is going to make any ounce of difference.

All that will impact the level of violence against women is trade restrictions/fiscal penalties and the threat of international policing. No one country can achieve that.

Yes, HelmetByNight, it is an abandonment and was always going to happen from the first. It is also a negation of the more than 3,500 deaths of coalition forces and about 1,700 Afghani deaths, not to mention the thousands injured and traumatised and the millions (or billions ?) spent. And now there is a new generation who are even more likely to be driven by anger and revenge to stamp out what they see as western corruption.

Good piece on Ch4 News tonight

Also remember the boys - the 'dancing tea boys'

humanrights.brightblue.org.uk/blog-1/2017/8/18/bacha-bazi-afghanistans-darkest-secret

One of the reasons the taliban was welcomed by some was that they stamped it out

It's awful to say it, but there is no real way to stop what's coming. The best thing foreign governments could do would be to open up their asylum numbers and try to help any Afghans who want to leave. Long term, the only real answer is to try to coerce the new regime and its backers into better behaviour.

The problem is that 'the Taliban' are not one unitary actor, with one powerful leadership. They are many different factions with different leaders and different backers, they are semi-united right now against the current government but if it falls we will likely see a return to the early 1990s civil war situation.

That will make it very difficult to coerce or negotiate with anyone. It will be a mess.

I feel terrible for the women of Afghanistan and I wish things were different, but women all over the world are suffering like this and we can't occupy every country indefinitely. I don't think anything will change until the whole system changes, until more women are in power, until this era of geopolitical bullshit is over, etc etc.

Ok, stupid question maybe, but why can’t we offer them asylum?

The UK could offer asylum if it wanted to, but it doesn't want to. That's why it only took in about 15,000 Syrian refugees compared to Germany taking in 1 million.

It's been a real struggle to get the UK to take in all the Afghan translators who helped British forces and are marked for death because of it.

There is not much we can do in Afghanistan but WE CAN put pressure on our own government to accept more Afghan refugees!

Info on the current scale of internally displaced people in, and refugees from, Afghanistan

news.un.org/en/story/2021/07/1095782

What is needed most is money - the UN programme is only half funded at present.

Before our most recent intervention there, we’d invaded Afghanistan three times before, and it never ended well. Looks like the same this time around.

It’s a really complicated situation. Looking from abroad the Taliban are clearly the opposite of anything we’d want in the UK. Removing them seems like the right thing to do? But it all goes so wrong.

Are these places, including Iraq, better or worse after our work? I really don’t know. I really do wonder about the perspective of the local population. I expect there is huge variation.

Regardless, military interference abroad leaves a significant legacy. We’ve done that all over the world. Luckily now we don’t have the resources or ability to do it at the same scale.

Is the whole thing still powered by the trade in opium? If so, one major thing that could be done is to legalise and regulate this market, that way financial/trade sanctions would actually work.

Not politicaly palatable though...

There's a lot of resentment towards Pakistan as it played host to many of the madrassahs that taught the hardline 'Taliban' style of Islam.

Some of the militants were the teachers, most of them pupils and now they're pouring back over the border to inflict their style of this religion.

There are hundreds of civilians dead already and the stories about kidnapping women and girls are horrifying.

I would support any country offering asylum to Afghani and Pakistani women and girls.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/aug/12/i-worry-my-daughters-will-never-know-peace-women-flee-the-taliban-again-afghanistan

@Keepithidden, there is already a legal market for opium.

It's where the world's morphine, diamorphine, codeine, dihydrocodeine, papaverine and other opiates come from

The whole thing was a shit show from the beginning. It was unforgivable to invade a country on the grounds of a lie. Untenable to impose a western style of government on a country still in the throes of tribalism. Horrendous to sacrifice the lives and mental and physical health of thousands of US and other troops dragged into the mess, and equally bad that thousands of Afghan troops and civilians died as their country was torn apart by war. Almost as cruel was to show women that they could be free and autonomous, be educated and have jobs knowing it would eventually be snatched away from them.

It is unsustainable that western countries pour troops and money into Afghanistan to no good end. Did the USA and UK learn nothing from the Russian experience?

The arrogance of western societies knows no bounds with its belief only one method of rule is relevant and then proceed to push this on the rest of the world. Democracy is the best imo, but countries have to reach this conclusion on their own not have it imposed on them.

It started bad and it will end bad. Sometimes doing nothing is the best option.

I understand that we shouldn't intervene and our previous attempts have not helped.

Between this, whats happening to the Uyghur women and girls, and the rapes in Ethiopia I'm just so angry/sad/mad/frustrated. I know you all are too and are just pointing out that it is what it is.

Females are yet treated like a lesser lifeform. I cant see how anything will ever change.

I had never heard of bacha bazi before. It is horrific and I aam not surprised the Taliban would be welcome if they stamp that out! Except of course, in saving the boys, the girls are then sacrificed to essentially the same abuse, except legally, as child "wives".

I agree with those who say we should try to take as many refugees (prioritising women and children) as possible.

It is horrifying to think of the life that faces them otherwise.

I'm finding this really distressing so I can't imagine how it feels to have family stuck there. I don't think most people can comprehend the worst of what is going to happen there (involving fgm in addition to girls being forcibly married off)

I think there is so more that could be done but the Muslim world needs to do so much more first beyond the West - Pakistan and Saudi could be pouring money into promoting a much more tolerant version of Islam and deradicalising people (and offering them hope in terms of employment). That does end up paying off, it just takes a lot of time and effort.

Sadly, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are more responsible than anyone else for the emergence of the Taliban and promoting radical Islamist factions (around the entire region as well). They are not going to be a moderating influence unless other countries put a huge amount of pressure on them, which is unlikely.

The countries that will have the most influence when we leave are Pakistan, Russia, China and Iran, none of which are going to care very much about human rights abuses.

It's frankly amazing to me that we ever got involved in Afghanistan. Selfishly, it's cost a us lot of money, and more importantly 450+ of our young men killed. I'm not convinced it has made things better for the people living there (actually I don't know enough about it, so that's just my opinion). I just can't imagine how bad it is/will be there for the locals and their innocent families that aligned themselves with the US/UK/etc.

I do understand we have an aggressive imperialistic past with a history of invading foreign countries. However, I'd have though this experience and valuable lessons learned would have made is less likely we do that in these more enlightened times?

I really don't know what the answer is. It makes me feel sick and very angry. Women and females treated worse than rabid dogs. Absolutely barbaric.