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Feminism: chat

Is anyone else looking at Afghanistan?

284 replies

PickUpAPepper · 08/07/2021 17:45

I'm unhappy about the abandonment of these women in Afghanistan. Johnson's speech is the usual male-centred self-justificatory claptrap. Freedom, justice, equality and even terrorism - all of it only means anything when men or money are involved. These women deserve freedom from the Taliban, and support to find it.

news.sky.com/story/i-dont-want-them-to-die-bitterness-resentment-and-fear-as-afghanistans-new-generation-left-to-fend-for-themselves-12349139

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charliebrown59 · 15/08/2021 18:49

My dd asked me today if women had ever controlled a country and deprived men of the right to education and employment.

Lots of esteemed democrat leaning journalists on Twitter going on about how we should never have been there, how other presidents deserve more blame. How popular this is with Americans. How Trump made the withdrawal plan (!)

Biden did not have to do this.

PicsInRed · 15/08/2021 19:08

Then there are lots of people saying it all came as a surprise how fast it happened

If has been clear and obvious that Afghanistan was falling rapidly for days now, and a cursory glance at the news would have informed the most averagely competent Foreign Secretary that he was urgently required back in-country. FGS, any situation which requires the SAS to be deployed into a war zone to perform an under fire extraction of an ambassador requires cabinet in house, not on the fucking beach but reachable by mobile. Hmm

With people being able to work remotely and this pandemic showing it has been beneficial without affecting productivity in majority of cases, whats the problem if he is physically not in this country

Quite right. I keep hearing that remote wfh will result in offshoring of jobs and we should all hurry back to the office or risk our jobs leaving the country.

Perhaps we could offshore our cabinet? Might be cheaper and more efficient.

PickUpAPepper · 15/08/2021 19:57

Half of the police and the legal system can go too.

Unfortunately I’m not in my hometown and have few social networks. If I knew a few more sensible women I’d suggest starting a regular volunteer group of women to patrol town streets late at night to help women. Something like Manchester’s Street Angels group, but specifically for women.

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FlorisFigure · 15/08/2021 20:27

Things must be bad in Kabul if Saudi Arabia is evacuating its staff from their Embassy.

meditrina · 15/08/2021 20:52

@FlorisFigure

Things must be bad in Kabul if Saudi Arabia is evacuating its staff from their Embassy.
I don't quite know what to make of that - Saudi Arabia was one of the only 4 countries to have recognised the previous Taliban government (1996-2001) so I would have expected them to be safe from interference or attack by talibs. And be able to keep an ambassador there if likely to recognise again
Dreamstate · 15/08/2021 20:55

@PicsInRed

Then there are lots of people saying it all came as a surprise how fast it happened

If has been clear and obvious that Afghanistan was falling rapidly for days now, and a cursory glance at the news would have informed the most averagely competent Foreign Secretary that he was urgently required back in-country. FGS, any situation which requires the SAS to be deployed into a war zone to perform an under fire extraction of an ambassador requires cabinet in house, not on the fucking beach but reachable by mobile. Hmm

With people being able to work remotely and this pandemic showing it has been beneficial without affecting productivity in majority of cases, whats the problem if he is physically not in this country

Quite right. I keep hearing that remote wfh will result in offshoring of jobs and we should all hurry back to the office or risk our jobs leaving the country.

Perhaps we could offshore our cabinet? Might be cheaper and more efficient.

Really I dont care if he is here in the country or not. It doesn't make that much of a difference. The man is allowed a holiday and he went on one so what.

Kept updated as the situation changed and came back when required.

What difference does it make if he flew back a day or two earlier?

And there is a huge difference between off shoring jobs and working remotely for a few days ir going on holiday and still keeping up to date with whats happening in a job.

I dont know many senior people who completely switch off when they go on holiday

FlorisFigure · 15/08/2021 21:30

This plane is currently sitting on the tarmac at Kabul Airport. I hope they are packing it full of interpreters and their families ready to fly to safety.

Is anyone else looking at Afghanistan?
PicsInRed · 15/08/2021 21:40

The man is allowed a holiday and he went on one so what

I feel really comfortable in judging that the Foreign Secretary is not allowed a holiday during the disorderly fall of another nation, involving SAS extraction of the trapped UK ambassador and his staff.

I mean, really.

FlorisFigure · 15/08/2021 22:26

News just in…

“Taliban invaded the homes of at least two female journalists in Kabul today. One managed to escape, one is unreachable.”

FlorisFigure · 15/08/2021 22:29

And now this… thank god someone is doing something decent for once.

“ ..The British Ambassador to Afghanistan has stayed at the airport

..Personally processing the visas of Afghan interpreters who will be flown to the UK

#C4News

FCO website says its Sir Laurie Bristow”

PicsInRed · 15/08/2021 22:31

@FlorisFigure

And now this… thank god someone is doing something decent for once.

“ ..The British Ambassador to Afghanistan has stayed at the airport

..Personally processing the visas of Afghan interpreters who will be flown to the UK

#C4News

FCO website says its Sir Laurie Bristow”

He's one brave man.
Sittingonabench · 15/08/2021 22:46

@FlorisFigure

And now this… thank god someone is doing something decent for once.

“ ..The British Ambassador to Afghanistan has stayed at the airport

..Personally processing the visas of Afghan interpreters who will be flown to the UK

#C4News

FCO website says its Sir Laurie Bristow”

Would very much like to make him our PM. The moral character it shows is worthy of leadership.
FlorisFigure · 15/08/2021 23:00

Here is Sir Laurie’s wiki page. What is shocking is that he was in the same school year as my exDH Shock

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Bristow

PickUpAPepper · 15/08/2021 23:01

Biden in the US said that the military were not there to protect Afghan women.

What I would be asking if I was American, or rather demanding, is just what the fuck they were there for and just what they are always in the Middle East for. We all sympathised over 9/11: Britain has seen plenty of terrorism before and since, we know its horror. Is everything America has ever done just about revenge and grabbing oil? Why do they think they are superior to other states? What is all the crap about protecting democracy and freedom and other such shit when they don’t know or care what it means?

Another thing to ask British MPs in the coming days, as we here sit and enjoy the luxury of peace and time, is why we have been following such a nation around for so long again?

I know such questions have been asked before but they have been given an extra boost today.

I hope @sergeilavrov is somewhere safe too.

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Askmeaboutpins · 15/08/2021 23:36

Agreed PickUp.

@sergeilavrov Flowers

PickUpAPepper · 15/08/2021 23:45

That entry says Sir Laurie Bristow hasn't been there that long either. British diplomats did have a good reputation at one time. It seems it's still viable.

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PicsInRed · 16/08/2021 01:19

[quote Waitwhat23]Saw this a little earlier - utterly horrifying

inews.co.uk/news/world/afghanistans-first-female-mayor-waiting-taliban-come-kill-her-1152127

time.com/collection/next-generation-leaders/6047439/zarifa-ghafari-next-generation-leaders/[/quote]
Took out her father, will take her out, will take out anyone who is articulate and outspoken and/or with leadership skills to ensure no opposition, classic tactics.

I can't imagine the horror of waiting for them to come.

Peregrina · 16/08/2021 08:11

Is everything America has ever done just about revenge and grabbing oil? Why do they think they are superior to other states? What is all the crap about protecting democracy and freedom and other such shit when they don’t know or care what it means?

Because they are an Empire and that is how Empires get rich and powerful. Dressed up with a veneer to make it palatable to the people who are sending their sons (and now daughters) to fight.

RedToothBrush · 16/08/2021 09:31

Some hot takes from Western Men:

Roshah M Salih @rmshalih
(Editor of the British Muslim site 5pillars 5pillarsuk.com)
Whatever you think of the Taliban their seemingly imminent victory is a historic defeat of colonialism and imperialism. This should be the main narrative of media around the world, rather than the red herrings about women's rights etc that we are being sold.
Women's Rights are unimportant

Yanis varoufakis @ yanisvaroufakis
On the day liberal-neocon imperialism was defeated once and for all, DiEM25's thoughts are with the women of Afghanistan. Our solidarity probably means little to them but it is what we can offer - for the time being. Hang in there sisters!
Solidarity Slaves! Thoughts and prayers.

Alex Thomson @alextomo
(Chief Correspondent and presenter for Channel 4 news)
So- the takeover of the Afghan capital is more or less bloodless. That , at least, a huge relief for all Afghans and beyond. A city where the memory of the pulverising civil war of the 90s still hangs heavy.
Can't even see women and their fate.

Strangely no one in the media is commenting on the screens of Kabul airport where thousands of people try to board planes to escape.
A statement in which gender neutral language innocently hides a bigger horror - women aren't trying to flee via the airport. Its already too late for them. Its men who are almost exclusively at the airport.

Meanwhile
Samira Shackle @samirashackle
To give a small sense of the nightmare unfolding for Afghans: weeks ago, my friend in Kabul, a female TV journalist and single mother of two, asked me to help her find info about legal routes out of the country.

She's been threatened by the Taliban for several years, as a woman in the public eye, and these threats were intensifying. I tried to find info; there were very few options for visas or resettlement, despite western govs grandstanding about vulnerable women.

Obviously over the last few days the situation has become critical. It is too dangerous for her to go to work (even before today's catastrophe, she was followed home from the office and intimidated) and she's the sole breadwinner for her kids.

There are many NGOs and committed individuals trying their best to galvanise efforts to get at-risk people like my friend out of Afghanistan, but it's pretty much impossible unless you meet very narrow criteria (eg directly working for a foreign military). There are no flights.

The US has vaguely said it will extend its programme, but there's barely any info. Europe and the UK are silent. Canada is the only country to announce a major resettlement scheme; they said they'd take 20k Afghans, but no details yet on how this will work or how to apply.

I'm a native English speaker and someone who researches things for a living, and it's extremely difficult to find any clear info. Demand is huge, response times are slow. NGOs are doing all they can, but they're really limited without concerted, coordinated government action.

Through a small charity, earlier today I got my friend and her kids booked onto a flight out of Kabul in a few days, to a third country, where they'd be safe and could continue to seek resettlement. Relief! Then by this afternoon all commercial flights had been cancelled.

This was today, as Kabul fell. Soon after the flight was cancelled, my friend called sobbing to say that armed men had come to her door. She managed to get away and she and her children are currently in hiding with friends and relatives.

Her details are with different NGOs working on getting visas for women to get to the US or Canada, and I'm still trying, but all these efforts have limited capacity to succeed while there are no flights out. This is absolutely chaotic, and people will die unnecessarily.

Western countries spent the last two decades using every opportunity to utilise women in Afghanistan as a political talking point. So many women put their heads above the parapet, and now they are being left to die. This is just one example; there are thousands more.

And in Pakistan
Qasim Nauman @qasimnauman
"They have broken the chains of mental slavery in Afghanistan," says Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan.

Not shocked, but incredibly embarrassed. You have to wonder why Khan and his supporters complain about the "Taliban Khan" nickname.

Also spotted on twitter this morning

LSE British Politics @lsepoliticsblog
Many male MPs are willing to represent women’s interest in parliament. However, one of the key reasons seems to be a rational calculation of how they can enhance their re-election prospects, rather than to stand up for gender equality per se:
blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/gendered-leeway-male-mps/
For the win! Male politicians are more likely to represent women’s interests if their re-election is at risk

Its striking. Women are bit parts or a means to an end by all of these. They aren't valued in their own right. They've been abandoned already and any visas granted wont be going to women. Not that those visas are worth anything now, with no means to get out anyway.

Biden followed through with Trump's plan to leave. It was obvious this was likely to happen.

The stories of the women left behind will not be told going forward.

What has the war achieved? There were opportunities for women who now are left dreadfully exposed and there's billions of dollars worth of military equipment left to the Taliban. The situation is worse than when the west intervened. If thats even conceivable. Arguably it makes the security situation worse by giving a base to terrorism too.

But yeah women are an afterthought and inconvenience.

FannyCann · 16/08/2021 09:35

I've been obsessed with watching Flightradar24 these last few days.
Yesterday some international flights were still travelling through Afghanistan air space.
I wonder if that has stopped now?
I've been watching this flight to Delhi do a U turn and skirt around the border.

Is anyone else looking at Afghanistan?
RedToothBrush · 16/08/2021 09:46

@FannyCann

I've been obsessed with watching Flightradar24 these last few days. Yesterday some international flights were still travelling through Afghanistan air space. I wonder if that has stopped now? I've been watching this flight to Delhi do a U turn and skirt around the border.
Nothing can take off or land easily atm by all accounts due to people on the runway
Fleek · 16/08/2021 10:20

This is a really great Iranian woman to follow on Twitter - she's posting some really touching material of Afghan women. I think the endless of footage of women from the country wearing burqas that we were only shown for years were so dehumanising and just to have footage of women smiling, singing, crying, talking etc is so important.

Women like Masih are so brave. She's clearly pissing off a lot of people in Iran, too, by taking a stand on several issues.

twitter.com/AlinejadMasih

icelolly12 · 16/08/2021 12:33

Maybe, just maybe the men of Afghanistan don't really care that much about Taliban Rule, many may be even happy about it...

After all if it's women's rights that are degraded, how many Men especially in that part of the world will be secretly or openly pleased about the further subjugation of women...

Quote from The Guardian Article:

"Meanwhile, the men standing around were making fun of girls and women, laughing at our terror. “Go and put on your chadari [burqa],” one called out. “It is your last days of being out on the streets,” said another. “I will marry four of you in one day,” said a third."

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/an-afghan-woman-in-kabul-now-i-have-to-burn-everything-i-achieved

Tweet by a RMSalih "Whatever you think of the Taliban their seemingly imminent victory is a historic deferat of colonialism and imperialism. This should be the main narrative rather than the RED HERRINGS ABOUT WOMENS RIGHTS ETC"

Attitudes and values are not going to change in this part of the World towards Women. How many men in our part of the World REALLY care about women, other than in a knight in shining armour 'oh we must save the poor weak defenceless women" type way,

notimagain · 16/08/2021 12:48

@FannyCann

You are right there were overflights yesterday but this warning notice was issued by the Afghan authorities earlier today (C&P from part of the relevant Afghan CAA navigation warning, hence and apologies for the use of capitals:)

“KABUL AIRSPACE HAS BEEN RELEASED TO THE MILITARY. ADVISE TRANSIT AIRCRAFT TO REROUTE.
ANY TRANSIT THROUGH KABUL AIRSPACE WILL BE UNCONTROLLED.”

So overflight allowed at own risk with no air traffic control, so basically sensible airlines are avoiding the airspace.

I’d expect the military to still be going into/out of Kabul itself, despite some of the TV footage. Often as not those flights won’t show on the likes of Flightradar, either because the military have taken measures to ensure they show up and/or Flightradar has limited coverage of the area at low altitude.