Use of 'Karen' as a slur

[HDDD]

3 times in the last few days I've seen this and it irks me every time. I naively thought it was a short-lived thing and had faded out...clearly not. Is anyone else still seeing it? Are you calling people out when you see it? Or am I in a minority of one at getting annoyed by it?

At base it's about women 'complaining' or talking out. That covers a wide range of things. The most likely consequence I can see is women less likely to complain, to speak up or speak out.

If you have any idea of the many historic reasons that womens' voices are marginalised, silenced or derided, the idea that women are 'privileged' or generally 'powerful' as a group/class is pretty quickly exposed as risible.

today ive seen it used against a women who said fireworks were upsetting her puppy and about my dcs science teacher.

i cant believe people genuinely think its being used to call out priveleged racist women- it absolutely is not. and i guess the point that in the uk, at least, karen is a popular BAME and working class name doesn't matter- shut the bitches up...

@LordLancington

Arabella, I thought it was more about women flaunting their power over waitresses etc and bullying those of lower social standing than reporting crimes to the police (aside from Amy Cooper who wasn't really reporting a legitimate crime).

And so what if it is?

Are white women of a certain age the only women who behave badly?

And "flaunting their power" etc, etc as opposed to legitimately making a complaint? Who gets to decide which it is?

And the most famous cases I've seen referred to are women calling the police.

'Permit patty' - calling police
Woman in park with dog - calling police
'BBQ Becky' - calling police

I mean, I'm in the UK, of course, maybe these aren't the most well known ones, they're the ones I think of.

Who would want to discourage women from calling the police? Generally speaking, with rape convictions so vanishingly non-existent, with domestic abuse soaring, it's a rather odd cause to back, I feel.

Sorry , meant Are white women of a certain age the only people who behave badly?

yeah british women called Karen are famous for flaunting their power over waitresses- i mean, really? people believe that?

what are the waitresses called in this imaginary scenario? persephone and hermione?

It's quite simply seen as a bona fide way for sexist and ageist people to have a pop at women, where they otherwise wouldn't be able to, and telling them to STFU.

It's meaning seems to have gone from "entitled person" to "Anyone who complains even if they get an unforgivably shit service". ExH called me a Karen because I complained about afternoon tea with a friend - we paid £35 each, got 1 scone, 4 sandwiches and a slice of stale cake, but I'm a Karen for complaining

It's purpose is to disempower women and I always challenge it IRL when people say it

@AnyOldPrion

If it’s a transactivist, I’ve started to respond like this. Seems to make them grumpy. Can’t imagine why...

I am stealing that idea! Excellent! Cos it pisses me off too!

@EatTheHamTina

Oh and Susan is another one. Stacey Solomon started that one... she even promoted pjs you can get with Susan printed across the front. Apparently someone called Susan made a comment about something of hers and she decides to call anyone who doesn't agree with her a Susan.

Do you know what though, I can't hate Stacey for that. The Susan in question was messaging her and replying to her stories with horrible, judgemental things, and all she does is put a positive spin on it and show you should be yourself no matter what the haters might say.

She doesn't do it in the same way as you see on these threads. It's not a slur on the name Susan as such, she says 'for all the Susans' in the context of 'for all the people with the opinion of this particular Susan'.

I'm explaining that badly, sorry.

And so what if it is?

Are white women of a certain age the only women who behave badly?

And "flaunting their power" etc, etc as opposed to legitimately making a complaint? Who gets to decide which it is?

Of course they're not the only ones who behave badly, but the meme is about a particular demographic as are many other similar memes. I do agree it's been appropriated and used as a general slur though.

I do think that the behaviour described in the original meme is something less likely to be experienced by people who don't fit the demographic of the purported 'victim'. So white middle class women may be more blind to it than working class WOC, for example.

One of my best mates is Eastern European and works in a nice independent cafe whilst studying. She speaks four languages and is a graduate but she always tells me how snotty many clearly well off women are to her in the naice Midlands market town where she lives and works.

LordLancington, I thought that you weren’t into class analysis?

It seems that you are making generalisations based on class, sex and age however in order to support using a women’s first name as a slur.

Name calling is an ineffective tool for overcoming racism or any other kind of oppression. In fact it is more likely to perpetuate oppression and bullying of all kinds.

The meme is unhelpful and offensive. It is also sexist and ageist. As many have said it was designed and perpetuated with the purpose of putting women down in the hope that they will become quiet and compliant.

Obviously I fundamentally disagree with using the name Karen as a slur... but the only person I know who repeatedly used 'gay' as a slur for years ('urgh that's so gay') happens to be called Karen. So I'm secretly a tiny bit pleased.

It seems that you are making generalisations based on class, sex and age however in order to support using a women’s first name as a slur.

How am I in any way supporting it? I've already said above (twice I think) that I don't like it. What I'm doing is looking at the origin, which some don't seem to like as they'd rather try and imply men are to blame.

Amongst all the 'sisterhood' sentiment of feminism, many seem to ignore the fact that women are generally much crueler and passive aggressive towards one another than men. I was mildly shocked when I moved to a largely female team in my previous job. On the surface they all appeared to get on, but as I started going on lunch meetings with various combinations of them I realised how wrong I was. They had their distinct cliques and used to say some pretty derogatory things about each other in private. The most contempt seemed to be reserved for the colleague who extremely traditionally attractive and slim, who used to enjoy bantering with the men (who probably fancied her). The rest of the team were always putting her down and saying to each other how her £400 hair extensions were 'tacky' and made her 'look like a chav' etc.

This is all anecdotal but there's also a current thread on AIBU where a poster is saying how she finds satisfaction when misfortune befalls her friends (e.g. house purchase falling through, husbands cheating) and many seem to agree with her. There was also a thread a while back where women were talking about how unsupportive other females were at work, particularly in the legal sector where many were actively unhelpful to mothers and took a view that 'they should endure the sacrifices I had to'. Several studies were linked showing that women don't collaborate as well as men (and actually collaborate better with men than other women), that most women would rather have a male boss, and that women are less likely to help another woman the more senior at work she is to them.

I guess my point is that IME women seem to be much more jealous and belittling to each other, and that is likely partly the origin of the original Karen meme. Of course men still perpetrate the majority of atrocities but we're talking about day to day social interaction here rather than the minority of dangerous criminals.

@LordLancington

And so what if it is?

Are white women of a certain age the only women who behave badly?

And "flaunting their power" etc, etc as opposed to legitimately making a complaint? Who gets to decide which it is?

Of course they're not the only ones who behave badly, but the meme is about a particular demographic as are many other similar memes. I do agree it's been appropriated and used as a general slur though.

Really- who are these other names which have been turned into such a ubiquitous slur?

You came up with Kev, which really isn't a thing and Ned, which isn't even a name.

It's not a slur on the name Susan as such, she says 'for all the Susans' in the context of 'for all the people with the opinion of this particular Susan'

It's an idiotic thing to say and no better than the Karen meme.

Oh, aye, all women are nasty and bitchy to each other.

Look, I've had any number of shitty menial jobs and I've also been a middle aged white woman. The customers who were arseholes to me? I'm sorry but it was blokes. Every time. Mostly sleazy, but also often arrogant, rude and just downright nasty. Every fucking time.

Maybe people notice women who speak up because it's so rare. And maybe women if a certain age start to care less what people think so are willing to speak up. Maybe, even, as these uppity women have started to glimpse economic and social parity they have started acting in what are traditionally seen as masculine ways.

We punish those who transgress social norms. We.punish women who don't comply. That's what this is, without a shadow of a doubt. You can try to dress it up as some kind of bullshit progressive call out thing - it's bullying women who don't submit. That's all.

I’m just taking a quick minute out between the Warsaw protests and the US elections (multiple citizenship is a chore) to call out the idiot upthread who says we ignore the source of the “Karen meme” and try to blame it on men. I suppose it’s technically correct - the person who spawned the hatred against “Karen” was 17 when he did it, and according to the law in California, where he lived at time, he was a boy and not a man. That is really not a gotcha for women, though, or something worth bandwidth on “Feminist Chat”. If

@ArabellaScott

Oh, aye, all women are nasty and bitchy to each other.

Look, I've had any number of shitty menial jobs and I've also been a middle aged white woman. The customers who were arseholes to me? I'm sorry but it was blokes. Every time. Mostly sleazy, but also often arrogant, rude and just downright nasty. Every fucking time.

Maybe people notice women who speak up because it's so rare. And maybe women if a certain age start to care less what people think so are willing to speak up. Maybe, even, as these uppity women have started to glimpse economic and social parity they have started acting in what are traditionally seen as masculine ways.

We punish those who transgress social norms. We.punish women who don't comply. That's what this is, without a shadow of a doubt. You can try to dress it up as some kind of bullshit progressive call out thing - it's bullying women who don't submit. That's all.

That might be your experience but these anecdotes about who is more unpleasant than whom are pointless and unhelpful.

There are unpleasant and rude people in all demographics.

FWR posters do, in my opinion have a rosy-tinted view of "sisterhood". Re Lamington's comment about offices I've never had to sort out squabbles amongst male staff, yet I have 2 female personnel who are regularly not speaking to each and attempt to rope in a third , blameless employee to back one or other of them in their squabbles. It means nothing other than I have 2 difficult female employees.

The Karen meme is awful. There is no equivalent for any other demographic. I have a very low opinion of anyone who uses it - and that includes posters on MN. There was a horrible AIBU thread recently where plenty of posters were defending it/ using it.

But this sort of "men are always ruder/ no women are" is ridiculous.

That might be your experience but these anecdotes about who is more unpleasant than whom are pointless and unhelpful.

...this sort of "men are always ruder/ no women are" is ridiculous.

I agree with this to be fair. The issue is that by disagreeing with elements of feminism it automatically sets me up as being 'against women' in the eyes of some, especially as a bloke.

I agree with striving for equality, but many times this doesn't really seem to be something reflected in the actions of some. Too often, it just seems like a blame game against men and I'm not convinced that many of these people are even really striving for equality so much as just enjoying the justification to complain about men. I see this in some of the old boys I manage who moan about 'Eastern Europeans taking all the driving jobs'....despite there being a massive shortage of drivers nationally and said complainants being only a few years from retirement anyway. It's just an excuse for misanthropic people to moan and feel justified about it IMHO.

It's not a battle, but I think it's unhelpful to always put women on a pedestal and ignore that many are not very sisterly and the majority aren't even really feminists.

But back on topic, I just don't believe the pseudo waffle about 'punishment for trangressing social norms' etc. I think it's quite simply a somewhat immature meme about a certain type of woman that moans about everything, sometimes using her position of relative power to bully people who aren't in a position to 'answer back'. I seriously doubt the people who use it think about it very deeply and it's much less offensive then many of the other racist/disablist memes I see tbh.

I encountered loads of these types of people when I first left a corporate environment and entered the logistics sector. I was driving HGVs to get some experience and found that now I was effectively in a 'service role' a lot of people at customer sites tried to boss me around, which was weird as I was earning almost £45k (a decent salary for a 30yo) but was still regarded as some type of grubby workman by many of the types of people who I was much senior to in my previous career and who would've treated me respectfully in that hierarchy.

For example, I was often told by snotty receptionists that "the toilet facilities are for staff only", them knowing full well that I had a 1-2 hour wait to be offloaded. I never stood for it and just said "ok, well I'll just have to take the load back then" or I'd ask what their name was as I needed to report a breach of HSE regulations. But the difference is that I was self employed and was turning down work every single day due to the national driver shortage, but many people can't afford to risk losing their job over a difficult customer.

so although 99% of terrorists, murderers, rapists, sexual abusers, extortionists, drug-dealers, bad law-mackers, environmental destroyers, etc are male, you feel its very important to remind people that some women arent as nice as youd like them to be and you'd like to continue putting forward your little anecdotes of women who werent lovely.
no shit sherlock.
do you think we all dont have billions of examples of interactions with 'not very nice people'?

@Helmetbymidnight ^^ spot on.

Look, I've had any number of shitty menial jobs and I've also been a middle aged white woman. The customers who were arseholes to me? I'm sorry but it was blokes. Every time. Mostly sleazy, but also often arrogant, rude and just downright nasty. Every fucking time.

Hear fucking hear! My experience too 100%.

There are unpleasant and rude people in all demographics..

True, but men can really let rip when they want to bully a woman rather than another man.

Because that's what bullies do isn't it? Pick on those they perceive to be weaker.