Use of 'Karen' as a slur

[HDDD]

3 times in the last few days I've seen this and it irks me every time. I naively thought it was a short-lived thing and had faded out...clearly not. Is anyone else still seeing it? Are you calling people out when you see it? Or am I in a minority of one at getting annoyed by it?

And the responses have shown that to many a white woman's pride is more important than a black man's life.

What?

So you've given up pretending that Kev is equivalent to Karen but you're now pretending that all or most of the times women in the UK are being called Karen or referred to as Karens in RL or SM is because they have been involved in a life-threatening racist incident.

Okay.

Oh, I thought that “Karen” was just an Aussie thing.
Poor Karen of Brighton (posh suburb), so bored walking just in her local area.

Its weird because Karen is more of a w/c women's name in the UK - and is popular with BAME communities.

And in the US, Karen's voted Biden. It was Richards and Donalds who voted Trump.

Still, its very important to laugh at/silence women.

@Helmetbymidnight

Its weird because Karen is more of a w/c women's name in the UK - and is popular with BAME communities.

And in the US, Karen's voted Biden. It was Richards and Donalds who voted Trump.

Still, its very important to laugh at/silence women.

The Karen voting analysis was probably for Hilary Clinton rather than Biden but it is correct. "Karens" voted Democrat by a big majority.

I'm just saying that I believe women are much more independent now than several decades ago

How many decades? You completely ignored my point that women in the boomer generation entered into high paying professions as never before and at a time when buying property was much more affordable. Presumably because it doesn't suit your idea that "boomer" women could be financially independent.

You're wrong about the widespread use of "a Kev"; that "Ned" is a name used as an insult and there's posts on this thread explaining your claim about the origin of Karen isn't correct so, all in all not a great showing.

You're wrong about the widespread use of "a Kev".

Everybody knew what a Kev was when I was younger. It may not be as popular nowadays but my point is that nobody complained about it. I don't really like the Karen meme, and as I said I wish they'd used a different word, but people are focusing more on that than on the behaviour of Karens which is what the meme originated from.

There is a double standard. I've seen men complain about the connotations of the term 'toxic masculinity' and how it conflates toxicity with characteristics that every man on this planet has (i.e. masculinity). They are invariably told to stop the toxic behaviour if they don't like the phrase that came from it. Should we not be telling women who complain about a similar situation to stop the toxic behaviour displayed by 'Karens' if they don't like the outcome? Collective responsibility and all that.

And yes, it's usually men doing the shooting, because strangely most women don't seem to want equal representation in the more dangerous jobs. Many like Amy Cooper do, however, seem happy to set the police on black men by playing the victim and making bogus distress calls which could very easily lead to said man's death.

White men are always told to check their privilege (usually by white women) but when the tables are turned the women don't want to check their own privilege. If you took it a step further, you could even use the feminist argument that the Karen meme isn't misogynistic because it originated from an oppressed group 'punching up' against the privileged group of white people. I don't really care to get in a bunfight about it though. Many on here will always take the view that women can do no wrong, even white women who are the second most privileged group after white men.

Everybody knew what a Kev was when I was younger. It may not be as popular nowadays but my point is that nobody complained about it

I suspect I'm older than you and I've never even heard of it. I Googled Kevin meme and there was a random selection of memes making fun of people called Kevin there was no consistency in how it was used.

I don't really like the Karen meme, and as I said I wish they'd used a different word, but people are focusing more on that than on the behaviour of Karens which is what the meme originated from

And what would this behaviour be? Women standing up for themselves? or even one particularly nasty one - a group of women doing nothing more than walking along a beachfront. Because that's what it means now. if I were to accept it refers to some particularly egregious behaviour only perpetrated by women of a specific age and ethnicity (which I don't) where is the corresponding use of a name for egregious behaviour by other groups?

There is a double standard. I've seen men complain about the connotations of the term 'toxic masculinity' and how it conflates toxicity with characteristics that every man on this planet has (i.e. masculinity). They are invariably told to stop the toxic behaviour if they don't like the phrase that came from it. Should we not be telling women who complain about a similar situation to stop the toxic behaviour displayed by 'Karens' if they don't like the outcome? Collective responsibility and all that

You're talking to the wrong person here. You're referring to class analysis. I'm not a fan of class analysis. It's far too blunt an instrument. Your argument however still fails to address why one particular group needs to be singled out in this way.

White men are always told to check their privilege (usually by white women) but when the tables are turned the women don't want to check their own privilege. If you took it a step further, you could even use the feminist argument that the Karen meme isn't misogynistic because it originated from an oppressed group 'punching up' against the privileged group of white people. I don't really care to get in a bunfight about it though. Many on here will always take the view that women can do no wrong, even white women who are the second most privileged group after white men

Boy, are you talking to the wrong person here. I detest the concept of "check your privilege" . It's not a phrase I'd ever use.

Your point about "punching up" is nonsense. Firstly because it is by no means accepted that "Karen" came from black women. Secondly, even if that were true, it still does not make it acceptable. It is possible to be a member of an oppressed group and still be wrong.

I completely agree. It's outrageous the way we are meant to just accept this misogynistic slur. And in the finest example of gaslighting, if you call someone on it you're accused of being one...

I hate it primarily because it is my name and it takes away my right to have any say in online discussions, no matter how reasonable I'm being, there is always some smartarse who responds with "Ok, Karen" or "look, we have a real life Karen" then much backslapping as if they have been totally original.

Ironically the two other Karens that I know in my friendship group are asian, so it's not an exclusively white name, I'm working class, so it's not exclusively middle class either. I'm 50+, so yes, I'm at that age where I will stand up for myself, but I'm never impolite and I'm certainly not racist.

Should we not be telling women who complain about a similar situation to stop the toxic behaviour displayed by 'Karens' if they don't like the outcome? Collective responsibility and all that.

And when your name is Karen and has been for 40 or 50 years and you’re not prone to complaining (nor trying to get black people in trouble with the police) then what?

How do you stop being ‘A karen’ when your name IS Karen?

PS - the assertion that it originated with black women is utter nonsense.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/karen

It's also not just a white name.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Alexander_(fashion_model)

And when your name is Karen and has been for 40 or 50 years and you’re not prone to complaining (nor trying to get black people in trouble with the police) then what?

Well, it's the same as when you're just an average guy and you're told that if you're not actively fighting against male violence you're part of the problem etc.

I too detest class analysis tbh, and the points I raised above aren't really my beliefs or arguments that I would use in person. I guess my point is partly that the Karen meme is something I dislike but also very similar to many of the things men frequently put up with and which don't get challenged in the same way. Something which is not dissimilar to being told to 'stop being a Karen' is when some people use 'mansplaining' to basically shut down anything a man says which they don't like.

@LordLancington
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Indeed. But some of the people complaining about the whole Karen thing are the same people who think nothing of using stereotypes against men. I don't call people Karens because I don't like when people generalise about white/straight men etc.

I don't use the expression "mansplaining" - if one can't do better than that to counter an argument of make one's point then it comes down to poor debating skills. Although I have to admit to using "feministplaining" on occasions when I've had it explained to me what being a woman is and what I'm supposed to think about being a woman.

There is a puerile meme (I wonder what the significance is that there's no word derived from puella to describe puerile behaviour) of behold a man has come to explain his manly view which used to appear a lot on here but I haven't seen it for a while.

I don't think however it or "mansplaining" is in the same league as the Karen meme. The "manly view" meme is patronising but lacks the viciousness and ubiquity of Karen memes.

Men do actually commit 98 of sexual crimes though, yet it seems pretty unlikely that 98% of customer services complaints are made by women called Karen.

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

Men do actually commit 98 of sexual crimes though, yet it seems pretty unlikely that 98% of customer services complaints are made by women called Karen.

That's an excellent point.

Also I can't think of a single case where an aggrieved woman complaining about poor service has pulled out a gun and shot a shop assistant. There's no accepted meme for an unjustified shooting by a man.

Well, we seem to agree on some things. I just really don't like class analysis tbh, as like the Karen meme it's a lazy way to blame a large demographic for the actions of small number of that group. I think it has it's place as a tool for analysis but falls apart when used as a to to apportion individual blame.

Also I can't think of a single case where an aggrieved woman complaining about poor service has pulled out a gun and shot a shop assistant. There's no accepted meme for an unjustified shooting by a man.

Maybe not, but I've lost track of the number of times it's been suggested on here that ordinary blokes like me have some sort of shared responsibility for the actions of individuals like the one you mention.

You have a point there. The shared responsibility is , for me, at the level of not being sexist, violent, etc, etc yourself and calling out your mates when they are.

I agree. I think the biggest societal improvement would likely come from individual men focusing on themselves, and in some ways the more 'meta' the discussion becomes the less focus there is on individual behaviour.

I apologise if I came across a bit argumentatively in my initial posts. I know a lot of blokes pop up on here to 'tell the feminists how it is' but this was never my intention. I guess I like to challenge my own views as every few years I tend to look back and reflect that life changes have changed me as a person and that I was wrong about certain things I used to be so certain of. However, I was probably a bit defensive as I anticipated an aggressive response.

But there are a lot of commonly held views on here that I can't say I agree with. One of the ones I've been thinking about lately is the view that men are privileged to retain their careers whilst their partner often has to 'sacrifice' their own. No doubt some women end up getting screwed over and left to fend for themselves with their earning potential now significantly impacted. But others (like my sister) end up happily married to a wealthy man and are able to choose their career/daily reality based on what makes them happy rather the the financial commitments they need to fulfil - unlike her husband who I know suffers quite badly with stress at times but couldn't easily change jobs due to being very senior in his organisation and them having relocated for said job, meaning they would likely have to uproot their young children from their schools/lives should he want a change.

It often seems to me that 'independence' is highly valued on here, but I also observe that many women I know seem to view their relationships as 'partnerships' or are more focused on the family as a unified entity. Of course, relinquishing independence is also a conscious choice for many and one that some seem happy to choose. Some of them end up screwed over, others live a 'cushy' existence, but it seems that the men largely follow a similar path of working full time for over 40 years without ever a full month away from this environment over the decades - which some thrive on but many undoubtedly become ground down by.

Personally, I had no desire to end up as a stressed executive, which is why I quit a very lucrative career in my late 20s and went down a more technical/blue collar route which pays well but won't ever see me earning six figures. I often used to resent that it would probably affect my (relatively hard nosed sales) career if I ever showed signs of emotional 'weakness' but that some of my female colleagues could burst into tears following a botched bid presentation and have it forgotten relatively quickly. When I left, my boss (Divisional Director) had been off for a month with stress and lots of people were saying they'd 'picked the wrong guy for the job' etc and that 'if he couldn't take the heat' etc.

I'm properly waffling now so I'm going to stop. I do read lots of things on here though which don't line up with my experiences of life as a bloke and I'm always eager to debate them but truth be told I usually don't as I'm never sure how well it would go down.

I'm certainly a bit perplexed about the obsession many people have with male CEOs etc as it's such an alien concern for the average human being, male or female. I wholly support equality of opportunity but I also feel like we're seeing increasing numbers of women display behaviours not dissimilar to toxic masculinity. This is probably a crude analogy to explain it, but I'd sooner see the focus on 'power/wealth as the value of a man's worth' de-emphasised than instead see it also become the barometer of a woman's value.

But then maybe many women always had similar characteristics to their male peers but just lived in an environment/society where they were stifled. I certainly see many women who seem to be trapped between the desire to progress their careers but also not leave motherhood too late (many if my sister's friends are like this) and I don't know if there really is a solution that doesn't involve some kind of sacrifice.

Memes generally exist - and survive - for a reason. Like stereotypes, and reputations, there is often a substantially valid, if subjective, reason behind it.

I'd say the "bring me the manager" haircut is more valid than the name, but the intent is the same.

Wiki is interesting on "Karen" as a pejorative.

I just want to point out that the last 'Karen' I saw was the woman who filmed the man in London who had dragged a young girl about and either assaulted or raped the young girl. It's a very upsetting video, I advise not watching it. But who would want to mock or cast aspersions on women (of course I can't tell what race she is, how old she is or what class she is) both calling out a male and calling the police on a male? How many women might be discouraged from 'calling out' dangerous male behaviour for fear of being called a 'Karen'?

Arabella, I thought it was more about women flaunting their power over waitresses etc and bullying those of lower social standing than reporting crimes to the police (aside from Amy Cooper who wasn't really reporting a legitimate crime).