Toxic family mess

[junefrog]

I’m feeling really lost with my family and don’t know what to do.

A while ago my BIL behaved horribly towards my best friend — to the point that it’s impossible for them to ever be in the same room again. I posted about it at the time, he was aggressive, homophobic and egregiously nasty.

This wasn’t just someone on the sidelines, it’s someone who’s been on holidays with us, spent Christmas with us, very close. I said I was upset about BIL’s behaviour and was basically told to “get over it.” Since then, it feels like I’ve been cast out for daring to speak up.

My mum insists she’s about “kindness” and “values,” but she’s never once called him out. Instead, everyone seems to have closed ranks around him. My sister (his wife) is annoyed with me, and my other sister has started ignoring me for no reason.

The final straw was when my sister went behind my back and messaged my ex (who was abusive) to arrange for my son to go to her child’s birthday party (on my weekend). She didn’t even message me first. I find that totally inappropriate and sly, given what she knows about the abuse.

On top of that, they all recently went for a family photoshoot and I wasn’t invited. My oldest sister and niece came back from where they live abroad and I tried to reach out, and she ignored me. It feels like I’ve been erased.

I’m dreading Christmas. I feel like I’ve got no family. The hurt of my sister messaging my ex instead of me is not something I can just “get over.” I desperately want a functional relationship with family, but not one where my views and feelings are constantly sidelined. I’ve genuinely done nothing wrong other than say BILs behaviour was really awful. I can't understand why me being upset is worse than the behaviour in the first place.

I don’t want to prevent my son having relationships with his cousins and grandparents, but I also don’t want him around this toxic mess or people who deliberately cut me out. In truth, I feel much more peace when I have no contact at all, but then they pop up vaguely here and there and reopen the hurt.

AIBU to feel completely excommunicated and like there’s no way back from this?

My familys dynamic is really toxic. Lots of favouritism and leaving people out. Burgling bad behaviour under the carpet and pretending it didn't happen

I tried to keep contact because I didn't want my children growing up without a family

All that happened is how they treated me trickled down to my children. One was put on a pedestal and could do no wrong and the other, like me, was left out and not teated kindly.

We are NC now and I feel so much better for it

Their image of a happy family is fake, when I'm not on the scene they turn on each other ( I went NC for 6 years, reconciled for 18 months and am back to NC now )

In my opinion your better off going NC

You need to accept they will never be the family you want.

As for your mum, if she isn't part of the solution she is part of the problem. That's just how it is I'm afraid. Triangulation can take many angles.

Sod Christmas, if they want to see you then let them come to you, otherwise cut contact.

It's better to have boundaries and maintain them than let people walk all over them in the name of an idealised dream family that can never happen.

What would that achieve for your son?

I've had a lot of dark thoughts and dark times in my life, as well as some downright horrible toxic relationships, but I would never give anyone the satisfaction of knowing they've made me want to end it all.

You can be better than they are. You are better than they are. You need to be here to give that gift to your son and be the non-toxic family he has.

Anybody who dares to make you feel like this, fuck them. Feed them rice. They are shit people, who you need to remember have agency, and choose their actions and if they choose to be shitty people then rise above them.

You have the power here to truly make a difference to the world and be an example to your son about good relationships and showing strength when you feel weak and persevering when others would rather see you torn down. Don't give them that satisfaction. Take your son and live your best life. Set new traditions for events and holidays.

Find Dr John Deloney on YouTube.
He does phone ins in America about all sorts of family problems and he has helped me gain perspective on a lot of issues.

He talks a lot about ‘choosing guilt over resentment’, so take a step back, remove yourself and live a happier life rather than resent your family & how they treat you all the time. Take control of it.

He has a lot of good videos and books I think you’d get a lot from.

I am sorry OP to hear this. I was the black sheep who was estranged. I turned it around and now am having the best relationship with my family after some time away from them. I couldn’t live without them to be honest and the issues we had were awful. I think if I laid the case out here it would be clear I swallowed a lot. I think many would advise to have cut them permanently.

I learned how to put up boundaries and also understood that to move forward, it is ok not to get an apology. Take it one contact and one day at a time. My goal was to find peace and I have. If you don’t want a relationship with them that is also ok. Everyone is different.

All the best, OP 💐

Drop back the input with them....slowly and subtle.....you do not have to be a listening ear to drama nir an audience to the achievements if you and your family are minimised out. Your sister undermined you with your own child for her own needs....nip that in the bud for next time.

I’m so sorry you have been through this. They sound awful, and you sound absolutely lovely.
A couple of thoughts.

1. once you give up on the hope of a kind, supportive family everything will become easier. I have a weird toxic boss. I would love a kind, supportive boss. But she isn’t, and I can’t change her, or change jobs right now. So I just have to put my boundaries up and work around her. Once I stopped hoping she would be a good boss, everything got easier.
2. your best friend sounds lovely. Look up the concept of ‘chosen family’. These are the people who you should prioritise in life and who you should look too for love and support. Blood ties are massively overrated in our society. Demonstrate to your son that the relationships worth investing in are those where people are genuine, kind and not manipulative.
3. And finally really well done for getting away from your abusive ex. That take strength, courage and resolve. You deserve happiness and joy in your life. Not being dragged down by toxic people.

I think that you need to accept that this is who they are and you don’t have the power to change this. What you can do is work on your expectations and make them realistic. You want a functional family relationship with people who don’t share the same values as you do. Is that even possible? Not without both sides compromising. I don’t see them being willing to compromise. They have made their priorities very clear. You can only make choices for yourself from now on. If you don’t want your ex making decisions for your time with the kids, don’t allow them access. Organise other things. Focus on spending your time with people who lift and support you and be conscious that you have made this decision. It’s really empowering to do this. Make your boundaries clear with behaviour not words.

OP, your therapist sounds pretty good. I'd go back and have some more sessions if you can about how to handle going no or low contact with these people as they do really sound a toxic mess. But when it's your own family, extracting yourself can be tough and guilt-ridden.

I can totally relate to what you are saying. I am the scapegoat, my older brother the golden child. It can drive you absolutely insane, the injustice of it all. They see you as ‘difficult’ because you care too much. (I was told this) Whereas the golden children seem to give less grief bc they are essentially more shallow or selfish, so it’s perceived as an easier (happier) life with them. The more they treat you differently and you kick back the more you’re confirming you’re the difficult one - no self reflection on them whatsoever. It’s a vicious circle as you become more upset that this is happening while the golden sibling sits back, enjoying the benefits and watches the fireworks. Any shitty behaviour by them in general is minimised or presented as being a one-off, and if it’s directed at you, you’re being overly sensitive if you don’t put up with it. This is never reciprocal however.

When they say terrible things directed at you and you react, you’re the one ruining the atmosphere and causing trouble (if you ignore you’re affirming this is acceptable and you deserve to be treated this way).

If however you were to say something similar to them, all hell breaks loose at your behaviour and you are again accused of ruining the atmosphere and causing trouble - THEY are never held accountable.

My mother will be the first to proclaim I am extremely generous, thoughtful, caring etc. yet this is instantly forgotten if I point out how he and his family are being treated more favourably than mine in a scenario. If he were to do the same they would pull themselves inside out to accommodate him. They run things past him first whereas I am told what is happening. I’m locked in like you, OP, because my kids love them and are totally oblivious to all this (thankfully). I’m in a hideous situation where I want to go no contact with all of them but I don’t want to regret them missing out on seeing them or deprive them of the more positive interactions they will hopefully cherish as they get older.

What’s heartbreaking also, in my situation, is I saw a similar pattern developing in my brother’s children when they were younger. Not so much a golden child, but a definite scapegoat and my mum would horrifyingly back this up - he was a small child ffs, and his behaviour was typical of such. I think it all boiled down to the fact that he reminded them of me and became me by proxy. I stood up for him as much as I could, but sadly/wisely(?) he has chosen to assimilate to be accepted. He pushes his feelings down and is very agreeable and they have less to complain or blame him for. He is extremely empathetic and emotionally mature and provides comfort and understanding to his father, which his older sibling doesn’t, he’s more of a typical self-focused teenager, which is natural for his age.

I feel so sorry for him as my brother does not deserve his love and kindness, (I won’t go into detail) and I think he will always be there to support him in a way he hasn’t necessarily been supported himself. I hope he can make the move when he’s older and get himself away, but I feel that he is emotionally tied like I still am and my heart breaks for him.

I’ve had a similar situation so I went NC. It wasn’t easy, but now the shock of it all is wearing off, I feel lighter than I ever have in my life.

Still kind of dreading Christmas though!

You’re the truth-teller in the family, as am I, and the scapegoat. Dysfunctional families reject those who won’t keep up the pretence that all is well. It’s scary but freeing to exit the role you’ve been given.

OP, I don’t know how old you are, but I can tell you that - in my experience - this kind of toxic family mess NEVER gets better. They will NEVER change. Ever. I am 43 and I am the “you” of my family, with one older sister (golden child and clone of mother) and my toxic narcissist of a mother. My mother is 80 years old and is still full steam ahead with her atrocious, toxic, cruel, self-centered behavior. She shows no sign of changing.

My sister has (hilariously) started telling me I need to “spend more time with Mom” because she’s getting old and she’ll die and then I’ll regret not spending time with her. (haha, no.)

Narcissists like this have absolutely no ability to self-reflect and “see” what they’re actually like, and they have no interest in learning to self-reflect (they don’t think they need to.) Everyone else is always wrong. Everyone else is always the a-hole, never them. When people stop talking to them, it’s because that person is CLEARLY at fault - it’s NEVER the narcissist’s fault, in their mind. In their minds, they’re a good person. They are kind, generous, helpful, wonderful people. They’re completely self-delusional and don’t actually perceive reality like everyone else does.

Find your REAL family - be they friends IRL, online, etc. The family that shares your DNA does not HAVE to be the family you hold in your heart. Fuck them.

Does it hurt? Yeah. But just think about how many times your mom and sisters have hurt YOU. Those wounds fester and won’t heal. The grief of cutting them out and going NC will heal over time.

I wish I had escaped decades ago, but my dad had an accident when I was 18 so I stayed living at home to help care for him. Next thing I knew, it was two decades later, my dad finally died, and I am trapped (no career, no higher education, no relationship.)

Inevitably your mother will turn her tongue onto your DC at some point when he angers or disappoints her, and then she’ll be hurting you both.

It won’t be easy to explain to a child and there may be children’s books written that address this subject in an age-appropriate manner, but you could try to do a comparison to something your DC knows of. Or something like “Grandma and aunties hurt my feelings and make me feel sad, so I am staying away from them for now.” I don’t know what they teach kids in school these days, but maybe there’s an analogy to what kids are told to do if someone is being mean to them - walk away and try to get away from the bully rather than stay there and get hurt.

OP, we’ve got your back. You’ve got this.

Your family are abusive, your son is better offer not having a relationship with them as otherwise he could develop their abusive ways or also be treated poorly by them. Either way he’s not going to have a Good experience in a relationship like that.
I would go no contact, take them all off social media, block them on everything including your phone. If they harass you in anyway log it with the police.
Not easy but healthier for you and your son, teach him what a healthy relationship looks like so he knows how to avoid them when he’s older.

Dear op. Your pain is palpable in your threads. Can you please stay with us - your son needs you to be here. Given his father and your family he would stand no chance without your protection.

Please call 116 123

You are having the moment we all have of realisation that the latest incident is just another in a much wider and bigger picture.
That your mother is highly manipulative and harmful. It’s no surprise your first relationship was also abusive given your family op. But now the joining of forces, and weaponising the man that has caused you so much pain must be really quite unbearable, and just highlights how awful they really are.

Short term: what do you need now to cope and manage? Extra appointment with your counsellor? See some friends? Get some support? Stop all contact for now as you need to take care of yourself.

Medium term: I am sorry to say it’s extremely likely your son will be harmed in the same way as you have been. It’s very likely they will do the same thing to him, this dynamic is always passed from one generation to another.

The only way you can save your son from a similar outcome is by going very low or no contact. Otherwise you will endure all of this again via your child. You have the opportunity to prevent this from happening. To highlight as pp have suggested to ask ds if the behaviour is kind or loving or not. In a really factual way so he can look out for himself eventually. Use this situation to educate him.

Long term: Building a close and secure network of your own. Loving friends that love you and will be there for you. A job and life some distance away from all of these awful people.

Healing throygh therapy and self care. Understanding that this is not you, you are a wonderful person and want the best for everyone. This is not your fault. There is nothing you could have done or said to make things better with them. This is who they are and how they operate.

You navigate Christmas by spending it away somewhere with your son. Or with your best friend. You need to plan carefully in advance how you will manage ‘family’ events on the calendar. Ditto Mother’s Day and birthdays. You can send a card etc if you want to, but they don’t have access to harm you or your son.

This now needs to be reframed. Grieve the family they can never be to you fully in therapy, and refocus on how you can protect your son.

Where you can feel safe, how you can celebrate Christmas etc without too much pain. What do you need to feel peaceful, calm and happy with your life?

Know that one day life will feel better than it does today. One day it won’t hurt quite as much. One day you will notice that you are feeling contentment and safety without them. Happiness and joy becomes available to you when you let go.

I am so sorry you have been through so much, but you can go on to lead a fulfilling and happy lite op.

I’d probably stop talking to my sisters and BIL if this is all true.
Id probably continue the occasional chat with my mum.

Some people are ‘private’ about family groups - maybe they didn’t want your friend present at what they deem family events? Your mum sounds very passive in it all. Your sisters seem in cohorts somewhat, I wondered if you were the youngest.

You could also just ask them like you’ve asked us here to explain why they are upset with you???

I had a family branch like this. They all hissed around in their viper's pit for years constantly holding grudges against each other. They are all six feet under now and I often look back at all the time they lost with their silly little feuds. One of the daughters took umbridge with me over some petty little comment so I sent her a text to tell her never to contact me again and I would not be joining them in their viper's pit. She was: Oh, Oh, Ooh, Ah! Couldn't believe someone actually spelt it out. Dump them. They won't get any better and make a life for yourself, your children, partner etc. They simply aren't worth it and will never change. This does not lie with you, it lies with them.

I would also like to reassure anyone that thinks they are ‘depriving’ their children of grandparents etc by protecting them from certain family dynamics. My children are now adults, we went low contact/no contact when my parents started the same harmful behaviour with them, as they had with me reducing my dd to tears with nasty comments about her appearance. It was awful to see.

Over the years my dc enjoyed their childhood immensely because a parent is a child’s primary focus, not everyone else. They didn’t miss family gatherings, because they didn’t have them with my parents. We had parties and celebrations with close friends instead.
Dc had lovely strong bonds with others, and of course with us, my dc flourished with unconditional love and kindness. They have self confidence and self esteem, because it hasn’t been eroded away by their so called family. They understand what healthy relationships look like.

What have they missed exactly? Hurtful comments, undermining behaviour, toxic labelling and harmful interactions, tears at Christmas, self doubt, self loathing, confusion and lost hope. Not understanding why a ‘cherished’ grandparent seems to hurt them so much, and why is everyone looking the other way?

My children have never missed what they haven’t had thank goodness. My dd has as an adult, met up with my mother once with me, and was shocked at the narcissism and total self absorption. Seeing my family through her eyes was an awakening! She was horrified and said she was glad this hadn’t been a big part of her own life and childhood, and wants nothing to do with her.

A wider family can only ever be a good thing if they bring unconditional love, support and care to your child’s world. If your dc are simply used as another tool, harmed and manipulated you are just setting them up for a life of pain and disappointment - and poor relationships themselves in time. Pruext your kids at all costs. They won’t be ‘better’ with your dc. A leopard doesn’t change its spots.

It sounds as if your upbringing was a factor in Choosing an abusive exP. That shows their behaviours are dysfunctional. What birth position are you ? Eldest, middle or youngest ? Think that's significant for you to understand the dynamics surrounding your relationships with the women. You don't mention your Dad does he just go along with things? Ten ere are two things that come to mind. Watch Mel Robbins when she talks about ' Let them' allowing people to be who they are and not trying to change them. Boundaries - let your family know that any Comms about your son comes through you. It appears they know how to manipulate and annoy and press your buttons all egged on by your mum. NC is difficult to maintain but if you put boundaries in and see them as little as possible. Don't buy the gifts. Or do what you're told by your mum. Tell her you can make your own choices. It's time to stand up for yourself. They are bullying you. You're a grown woman. You could physically move further away?

Unfortunately you’re the scapegoat and it’s easy for them to cut you off and make out you’re the bad person. And I’m sorry, but they will also do this to your son. Don’t feel bad about not having any contact - for your own peace, it has to be done.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you. It really sucks. I don't have good relationships with any of my family either so I get how devastating and lonely it is when you start to see that even though the relationship is 'alive' so to speak, it's not functioning normally.

I wanted to pick up on the part where you said 'maybe if...'

There is no explanation you can give that will make them understand and finally treat you decently. There is no right way to say it because they're not interested in that. Within a family like this once the scapegoat has been chosen, the role sticks. It's almost always permanent. I know it's difficult but it's really important not to get caught up by the belief that you can fix it if you just try hard enough/finally get it right. You have to let this belief go. I've seen people cling on for years because of it, and all they've done in reality is make themselves available for more abuse, which the others gladly dish out, because that's what the scapegoat is for, and after all, the scapegoat deserves it, everyone agrees on that.

But your family isn't nice or kind. Your mum doesn't sound as though she has ever been a good mum to you and your sister and BIL are taking the side of a vocal homophobe who was bullying and harassing your best friend.

You may struggle at first, but it will be so calm and peaceful if you just cut these horrible people out of your life and concentrate on the people that do love you.

I'm dreading Christmas

It's not complusory.

The final straw was when my sister went behind my back and messaged my ex (who was abusive) to arrange for my son to go to her child’s birthday party (on my weekend). She didn’t even message me first. I find that totally inappropriate and sly, given what she knows about the abuse.

That’s awful. What did your ex say to her?

I would have refused to attend.

No, no, no. Do not follow this advice. Blood is not thicker than water. Family is people who love, respect and support you. I have friends who are my family now.

For my sanity I had to grey rock (did not realise that’s what it was called) and then stop contact. It took me years and broke my heart but I’m much happier now they are out of my life.

You are protecting him not depriving him. You need to reframe it. The myth of family being inportant no matter how awful they are - that’s the challenge.