Could Psilocybin cure mental health issues?

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NC

I watched a couple of really interning films this weekend. One was 'Fantastic Fungi" and another was 'Magic medicine'. Both were talking about the effects that Psilocybin can have on curing mental health.

(For anyone that does'nt know what Psilocybin is - its the active ingredient in magic mushrooms)

There was an interesting study in the U.K with macrodosing ( large quantities) and I think one is Canada has just started.

I have seen quite a few sites on macro dosing - very small doses ( not enough to get high) and people have been saying that its massively improved their lives.

Psilocybin is actually illegal in this country and thats why its been so hard to even get permission to have these trials/studies.

I am just wondering if people have heard of this or what their views on it were

Thank you

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Fascinating! Reading with great interest.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria when I was young, "preparing them" which wasn't defined in law, but we took it to mean drying them or doing anything with them, basically, was illegal. But possession was legal, as was taking them.

Since then, commercial sales of mushrooms... erm... mushroomed (sorry!) and places like Camden Market were awash with all manner of exotic looking fungi.

The powers that be weren't at all keen on that development though, so they're illegal now I think. I don't know the exact details of the law like I used to when I took such things though, maybe someone else does?

Magic mushrooms (Liberty caps) grow naturally in the UK, though, and the tradition of taking them in this part of the world is no doubt older than the bible! So I imagine the law doesn't stop the determined from picking and eating them.

I'd wager good money they're legal in Holland. I wonder what the law in Ireland is.

My step brother micro dosed for depression and found it really helpful. He grew his own and dried them.
DH suffers with debilitating depression from his Bipolar II disorder and is considering trying it for that, though he reckons a macro dose first is the way to go. I think he maybe just wants to get high again (he was heavily into drugs in his youth, I dabbled gently!) but given how ill he is and how hard the last few years have been, I'm willing to let him try. I would supervise and it would have to be a time when no children are around. The legal aspect obviously isn't ideal, but there are worse laws to break.

I was also interested in the ketamine treatment you can have, I think there is an NHS clinic for it (still have to pay a lot) but apparently it doesn't last very long. Also not sure they would do it for bipolar depression. He's willing to give anything a try though, he's on 4 different medications and has tried at least 5 others.

A few of my friends do this, I've never tried it. They swear by it.

I wouldn’t be so keen on ketamine because of the bladder issues it can cause. Although I guess I see medical supervision that would be managed.

@newnamenewyear

I'd wager good money they're legal in Holland. I wonder what the law in Ireland is.

Only magic truffles are legal in Holland. With a well placed search you can find and order them to be delivered to the U.K. but it's a risk. You can buy shroom grow kits too and they are an excellent way to start. I've never known anybody to get caught though.

Ketamine is very different to mushrooms.

I've taken a fair bit of both. I know a lot of people who took too much ketamine, recreationally. I can't stand the stuff now. Nasty, synthetic, antisocial party smack.

Mushrooms - although I don't take them these days, I look back on them very fondly. Natural, lovely things.

Mushrooms are a much deeper experience - more spiritual, if you like. Taking a trip can genuinely give you profound insights into your life and the world. They are an experience, a journey you go on with those around you. Alternatively they can just be a giggle and a fun experience with friends. (Or a bad experience if you're unlucky / in bad circumstances).

Ketamine, o the other hand, is like a confused dream! And it all goes on inside your own head, it's not something you can really share with others. If you take a little bit you'll still be able to communicate with others, but if you take loads - enough to hallucinate - it's all inside your own head. It effectively paralyzes you - you go into a "k hole", and you have no clue what's going on in the outside world. I mean, I've taken it and felt like I had a conversation with "the little people" in my mind! But if that kind of experience happened on mushrooms, it'd be profound. On K, it's just a load of fucking gibberish IMO. Oh, and it's addictive (or "compulsive") where as mushrooms aren't in the slightest.

Because it knocks you out (which isn't surprising, given it's used a pre-med) ketamine is profoundly anti-social. It ruined the scene I was part of. Psychedelics opened our minds. Ketamine closed them down again IMO.

But - what do I know - I didn't get really into it (although I took it a fair bit, mostly with other drugs) but others I know did, maybe it did something for them it didn't for me.

I'm not sure there's any evidence that taking it once or twice harms your bladder, is there? I know someone who pisses blood because he took too much K, but he was on it pretty much daily for years.

How do you take it under medical supervision? We snorted it. Under medical supervision, do they inject it? I wouldn't fancy that either, I've never injected drugs and don't intend to start!

@newnamenewyear

Ketamine is very different to mushrooms.

I've taken a fair bit of both. I know a lot of people who took too much ketamine, recreationally. I can't stand the stuff now. Nasty, synthetic, antisocial party smack.

Mushrooms - although I don't take them these days, I look back on them very fondly. Natural, lovely things.

Mushrooms are a much deeper experience - more spiritual, if you like. Taking a trip can genuinely give you profound insights into your life and the world. They are an experience, a journey you go on with those around you. Alternatively they can just be a giggle and a fun experience with friends. (Or a bad experience if you're unlucky / in bad circumstances).

Ketamine, o the other hand, is like a confused dream! And it all goes on inside your own head, it's not something you can really share with others. If you take a little bit you'll still be able to communicate with others, but if you take loads - enough to hallucinate - it's all inside your own head. It effectively paralyzes you - you go into a "k hole", and you have no clue what's going on in the outside world. I mean, I've taken it and felt like I had a conversation with "the little people" in my mind! But if that kind of experience happened on mushrooms, it'd be profound. On K, it's just a load of fucking gibberish IMO. Oh, and it's addictive (or "compulsive") where as mushrooms aren't in the slightest.

Because it knocks you out (which isn't surprising, given it's used a pre-med) ketamine is profoundly anti-social. It ruined the scene I was part of. Psychedelics opened our minds. Ketamine closed them down again IMO.

But - what do I know - I didn't get really into it (although I took it a fair bit, mostly with other drugs) but others I know did, maybe it did something for them it didn't for me.

I'm not sure there's any evidence that taking it once or twice harms your bladder, is there? I know someone who pisses blood because he took too much K, but he was on it pretty much daily for years.

How do you take it under medical supervision? We snorted it. Under medical supervision, do they inject it? I wouldn't fancy that either, I've never injected drugs and don't intend to start!

Thanks for sharing.

I looked into NHS ketamine treatments, it's injected via a drip over a 40 minute period (at least the one in Oxford is).

Ketamine infusions are quite commonly prescribed in the US for treatment resistant depression even for teenagers. It's very well controlled obviously. Most of those I have read about seem to find it effective although treatment is often lengthy and expensive. Money to be made in the US of course! I think there is one hospital in the UK that offers it on the NHS. I think a few private clinics are springing up here too.

@chesirecat99 thanks for posting those links - I’ve applied to participate in the anorexia research as I fit their criteria, I’d be really interested to see if it can help where other therapies have not.

God knows but I took them twice as a teenager and had a fantastic night each time.

That's interesting.

To be fair, my experience of ketamine will be very different to someone's experience in a controlled medical setting. And, I guess, it's not the chemical itself but the experience it kick starts that makes the difference.

I don't think there's a huge amount of difference between a k-hole in a squat party and a k-hole in a medical setting though - if you take enough of it you have no clue where you are anyway and you're not interacting with the world, what difference does it make where you are?

Although... I suppose if you've never taken K, though, or never really taken drugs, it would be a major new experience, and that might help you frame things differently.

After all, it's the experience that makes a difference isn't it, not just the chemical alone?

That was meant to be to HeidiHaus

I've microdosed mushrooms on and off for 5ish years now using liberty caps I've picked myself and dried and dosed up into caps. Theres enough growing around here to last me several years at a time. When I first started I think it pulled me out of depression and reduced my anxiety and more recently it has sparked my inspiration and I am much more creative. I will continue to use them as for and when I feel I need to.

If its not been mentioned before the Beckley Foundation is a great fountain of resource on the subject and their recent drug trials with I forget which University, was really intresting reading.

This is the info the Oxford NHS trust has on their treatments.
Parents in the US whose children have ketamine don't seem to make any reference to the intense kind of experience you describe. I've no idea on the size of dose so maybe it is more like the micro dosing effect?

@HeidiHaus

Ketamine infusions are quite commonly prescribed in the US for treatment resistant depression even for teenagers. It's very well controlled obviously. Most of those I have read about seem to find it effective although treatment is often lengthy and expensive. Money to be made in the US of course! I think there is one hospital in the UK that offers it on the NHS. I think a few private clinics are springing up here too.

By "infusion" I take it you mean injecting liquid ketamine that's been diluted a bit?

"Infusion" sounds so soft and lovely. A herbal tea is an infusion.

But you don't stick K in a cuppa! You need to snort it or inject it for it to work AFAIK.

If I'm right and it does mean IV, then it sounds like the marketing people have had a go at that! "I'm going to shoot up some ketamine" doesn't sound nearly as therapeutic as "I'm going to go for a ketamine infusion", does it?

@HeidiHaus

This is the info the Oxford NHS trust has on their treatments. Parents in the US whose children have ketamine don't seem to make any reference to the intense kind of experience you describe. I've no idea on the size of dose so maybe it is more like the micro dosing effect?

Yes, perhaps! I'm curious now, I'll have a look.

The other synthetic drug we should be talking about, though, is MDMA and all its relatives.

MDMA was created by a scientist called Alexandra Shulgin. He was researching psychedelics for therapy and invented lots of new ones.

MDMA really does make you feel huge empathy with those around you. (It's pretty much responsible for ending the football violence of the 80s).

I have no doubt it's a very useful therapeutic tool.

www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jun/03/alexander-shulgin

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria. Thanks learned mindfulness meditation at the local Buddhist Centre, who taught it alongside a compassion meditation (which starts with self-compassion).

On Buddhist circles, it’s known to be a big mistake to practice mindfulness without also practising compassion, for exactly the kind of reason you mention.

You have to have a compassion/loving kindness practice which will help you be comfortable with the emotions and memories the mindfulness practice will reveal to you.

Oops here's the info I was suppose to post before....https://www.oxfordhealth.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/KetamineTreatmentForDepression.pdf

Yes, that makes sense @PersonCareHotline.

I had a quick google and found this blog post, which caught my attention. mindworks.org/blog/what-is-compassion-meditation/

Thank you, I really appreciate that. I'll have a look at some Buddhist resources.

@newnamenewyear responsible for ending football violence?

because the people who usually indulged in football yobbery on a Saturday afternoon started going to raves on a Friday night?

Wow I cant believe all the posts - was sure I was going to get kicked off! . I only come on here when at work so I will have a read when we are quiet.

Thanks so much for all the replies and info!

I'm going to try it. I don't have bad mental health but my anxiety can some times get the better of me and I know I haver low level depression as I feel like I am wading through mud every day - and also I do think I have ADHD as I have taken a few tests now and I score very highly on them, I just think I am good at masking.

So I will see how it goes.