NHS Mask Shamed/Discrimination, escalating action (thread 2)

[Maskwoes]

First thread: Mask shamed (disability), complain? (Some TMI) http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/3978398-mask-shamed-disability-complain-some-tmi

It's been almost a year since I made my original post, and the after effects are deeply ingrained in my soul. I've had my piece published in Laura Dodsworth's book "A State of Fear" too.

I complained through PALS and my concerns were escalated to a senior nurse at the MIU, where my concerns were met with pure disdain, an attitude of "fuck you, wear a mask, protect everyone, I don't give two shits about the impact on your mental health". She also wrote that any questioning regarding lack of masks would be gentler and more private - things I know have not been implemented.

I've taken legal advice to determine my legal position and I'm told I have a strong case as the MIU stance contravened governmental coronavirus regulations and the impact to my mental health is shocking. Also that my mental health conditions, including PTSD and GAD from the sexual assault, and how they affect me are enshrined as a protected characteristic (Equality Act) and their actions were in contravention of this and direct disability discrimination.

I'm about to escalate up the chain to CCG, then CQC, then sue. Why sue? Why do I feel the consuming rage to take money from the cash strapped NHS? Because it's the only language they will understand - the only thing that will force accountability and responsibility on them. I can then directly pay privately for counselling.

@Maskwoes

This clearly wasn't a minor issue in the OP's life. This was something hugely traumatising,

Yes, exactly. It boils my piss the way mental health issues are just casually brushed under the carpet as a mere inconvenience. I want their accountability and I will not stop until I have it.

Some posters are saying to let it go

It's obviously your choice

I salute for doing it because we have no idea how many more times this will happen or how many times we will be expected to explain disability or mental health issues. The NHS in particular needs to learn a lesson here.

I haven't been through any trauma, I am able to wear a mask. But I see this as like the horrible people who say to my friend "why are you using a walking stick" and are really aggressive about it.

Covid has brought out even more disability discrimination than there was before.

[quote Mummyoflittledragon]@ancientgran
I imagine it is blaming the victim as it gives the message if they just tried hard enough or if they practiced enough times, they’d be able to get over x issue. And thus the message received becomes ‘just get over it’. And thus this becomes a position of not validating the person’s reality as the victim of abuse.[/quote]
I suppose so, I'm looking at it the other way as I wouldn't want the abuser to still be ruling my life so I think I'd be up for trying anything to resolve that but accepting there isn't a magic bullet. I guess I'm thinking it is encouraging them rather than judging but I suppose it varies.

Personally I wouldn't assume anyone wasn't trying hard enough, I'd just think it hasn't worked for them yet.

@Glowbuggy

People are DYING. Wear a mask.

Not from people not wearing a mask they are not

What happened to you was truly terrible but everyone has rights not just you so it's a balance of course.

Wearing a mask reduces transmission, this is a fact we know. We know people can be asymptomatic, this is a fact. Health care workers have died - fact. Does your ptsd from wearing a mask trump their right to not be at increased exposure to covid? These are hcp scared for their own health!

What should have happened is them take you into a private area to discuss the sensitive situation, and offering you a visor was done (yes they are horrible but so are the masks we are wearing, it's a pandemic) . Suing is not the right thing to do, people are lying because they don't want to wear masks, faking all the time, the receptionist will have heard every excuse (I have covid denying acquaintances who bragged on Facebook about buying sunflower lanyards).

Far better option is to request to sit down with the department coordinator to explain what they did wrong and how they could get it right. These are truly exceptional circumstances and I would have been frightened to work in a&e myself, I get they wanted masks to be worn.

I’m sorry about what happened to you. Can you seek counselling? I think wearing masks is going to be a thing for a while. There is edmr therapy available for ptsd.

I don’t think suing the hospital will do anyone any good. It will keep you thinking and ruminating about the incident and the nhs/staff were just trying to do what they were told. They would have been under an immense load of pressure and we’re probably terrified of catching covid from patients who didn’t wear masks. I feel sorry for you, and them, and don’t think suing is the answer.

@Orf1abc - yes, I thought the same. It definitely should only be done with the guidance of a HCP.

Also many people do struggle with oxygen masks. You put one on, when you come back 5 min later, they've taken it off!

I'm sorry to hear of your trauma and the distressing time you had. But I agree it is just causing you more distress by not accepting what happened and moving on. You could have a lengthy legal case that damages your MH further and you will probably not end up getting want you want from this process in terms of validation or financial compensation. Take good care of yourself

@Brunandcroissant

Many people deal with stuff. Bad stuff. Most people never even get a diagnosis for their ptsd (especially complex ptsd). Do you know what that's like? To not even be heard? You got validation through diagnoses and clearly the trauma you experience. I feel this has all just spurred you on to dictate how people should have acted in what were also very challenging scenarios themselves. It's not right. Everyone is walking around with emotional wounds. It is not just you.

Yes, I do know what that's like (I also have CPTSD,, btw). My abuse happened primarily as a child and it took until my 40s to get any form of diagnosis.

You're right, I'm not the only person with emotional wounds. However, I was the one placed into a pressure cooker environment where my rights were downplayed and cast aside, any control I had eroded and made to feel like I was back in a situation of being oppressed and dominated.

@TheLovelinessOfDemons

Wow, the lack of compassion on this thread is astounding. When will people understand that mental health is just as important as physical health?

Never.

@Couldhavebeenme2

As a hcp who has been on the receiving end of this sort of vitriol for the last 16 months, I know you'd be begging to wear an O2 mask or be artificially ventilated if your life depended on it, despite your experiences. I have absolute experience of this. Wear a mask in places you're required to because others' lives depend on it.

My bosses back me up, and theirs back them. Unless you're prepared to sign a waiver refusing an O2 mask/ventilation during any medical treatment.

You're not me. I had major surgery in 2017 and I stipulated in detail that I couldn't come round with an ET tube inserted and that the only form of oxygen acceptable was via the nose prongs. The surgeon and nursing team were hugely empathetic and receptive and there were no problems.

You're dismissing the impact of mental health trauma, of PTSD, of GAD. The fear of being oppressed, dominated, not in control, losing agency is much worse than the fear of death. Don't be so fast to presume I'd be begging for an oxygen mask.

But can you see that HCP who have seen many people die, some of them colleagues and friends, will feel just as unheard and not in control as you do. Lots of them have PTSD and you obviously will know how hard it must be for them to go back day after day into that situation.

@TheSunShinesBrighter

Now you're fucking VICTIM BLAMING ME? The PTSD, the GAD, the depression, the severe anxiety, everything is in my fucking notes that they had access to. They could have stopped when I told them I had PTSD, but no I had to disclose the abuse, in public, THREE FUCKING TIMES.

I don’t know who this was aimed at (I supposeI should scroll back) but I’m going to guess the first person you saw don’t have your notes in their hand when they asked you to put on a mask. I doubt the 2nd or 3rd person did either... All of this could have been avoided by making sure the hospital were aware of your situation before you arrived. You knew you were going to be asked to wear a mask.

It was an emergency trip to the MIJ, I'd broken a bone in my hand. I was wearing a sunflower lanyard.

However, Iwasthe one placed into a pressure cooker environment where my rights were downplayed and cast aside

Did they detain you? Restrain you? Were you free to leave the premises in order to be able to get some space and weigh out the options?

@RealhousewifeofStoke

I would suggest that you invest your time, money and energy into addressing your PTSD and trauma. It is fairly clear from seeming financial recourse has always been your motivation. The HCPs who tried to provide care for you a year ago will probably not even remember you. The past year has seen hundreds if not thousands of patients abuse HCPs and place other service users and staff at risk by refusing to adhere to the simplest of infection control measures. Your continued level of anger a year later is really not rational and addressing that should be a priority.

How dare I be angry still at having to disclose intimate details of childhood sexual abuse three times publicly...

@RealhousewifeofStoke

Interesting username, btw. You will know the MIU I'm referring to, 110%.

In the UK you won't sue the individuals who caused you distress.
You will sue a large organization, which already has people in place to manage legal disputes.

The only person who will continue to relive the day which causes distress will be yourself.

There is no guarantee that you would get an outcome that you wanted and you need to consider how you would manage if that happens.

Even if you are successful you need to think about what will actually reduce your current anger and distress because the legal process may well not.

My dc came very close to dying unnecessarily during childbirth after neglect and we considered legal action.

We ended up requesting a case review which apparently should automatically happen after a serious incident.
It gave the hospital a change to look at its procedures and make changes.
DH and I had mental health impact and therapy afterwards. For us we decided that suing just takes money out of a healthcare system.

Focusing clearly on what you need to get your health in a better state might meet your emotional needs better in the long run.

But I remember your first thread partly because of the levels of anger expressed so I'm not surprised that you are currently still continuing with legal action.

OP- if a paramedic ever said to you, put this oxygen mask on or you will die from lack of oxygen in a few minutes, would you refuse? I'm really interested. I'm guessing you would, as you would feel more traumatised with a close-fitting O2 mask.

@Summerfun54321

So sorry to hear about your PTSD and experiences OP. Sueing the NHS is going to give you very divided opinions and you’re going to get some nasty comments as many NHS workers are also dealing with PTSD following covid. If you want to sue then that’s totally your prerogative but it won’t be healthy or helpful to talk about that here and you may similarly get negative opinions in real life. I wish you luck, look after yourself.

Sueing the NHS is going to give you very divided opinions

I have wondered what the response would've been if this had happened at a private medical facility instead.

I wore a visor, it was claustrophobic and unbearable. I felt (again)like I was being suffocated. I had an hour long panic attack in the car after leaving the unit, I honestly doubt the visor contributed much to it, but I still cannot wear one due to the above, they are intrinsically linked with the situation a year ago, and provoked increased anxiety.

Have you actually had a diagnosis of PTSD or been told you could have PTSD ? There is a world of difference, getting an official diagnosis is extremely hard.

I have official diagnoses of PTSD, CPTSD, GAD, major depression, anxiety.

I am genuinely so sorry for all you’ve been through. It’s clear you’ve suffered trauma and the incident last year has deeply affected you. I don’t understand why you’d put yourself through the process of suing. It’ll be even more traumatic and I’m not sure you’ll find any healing. I would encourage you to use your energy on obtaining more help for your traumas.

This is really about two things:

1. Mask wearing. I was exempt, governmental coronavirus regulations state I was exempt, I was wearing a sunflower lanyard.

1. The disclosures. I have the utmost respect for HCP's, and I cannot possibly imagine the hell they have been through.

However, I stated I couldn't wear a mask due to PTSD/GAD when booking in. I was then forced to disclose the intimate details in a very public area. A nurse was called, repeat in the same public area. Taken to a room with an ANP and a doctor and forced to disclosed again. There was zero empathy, zero understanding.

Do you think if you took the time to reflect upon what happened your disordered personality may be part of the reason you're reacting to this historic situation like this?

I understand that being asked repeatedly to retell your history etc isn't putting the people whom dealt with you that day in a great light.

However your diagnoses will exasperate your reaction. I think you're failing to see the wood for the trees (& vice-versa with the staff) but there's an opportunity for lessons to be learnt on both sides here.

I wasn't clear in my first post OP you absolutely weren't treated well.

I work with dc who have experienced sexual abuse and one of the things we do towards the end of the therapy is talk about safe ways that they can talk about what happened to them.
Because sometimes they are going to be in situations where they may need to disclose the abuse.
We practice little scripts that are clear but not too over revealing. The dc practices a bit until they are comfortable with what they want to say and how much they want to share.
It means in a potentially stressful situation where they aren't able to think very well they already know what to say.
They won't be left feeling exposed because they overshared in stress.

Obviously you aren't a dc but something similar might help in the future.

Our advice last year (nhs outpatient department) from our management team was that if a patient declined to wear a mask we were to keep 2m distance from them and they would back us up. We have that in writing. We are still told to not do any resuscitation on anyone until we have put on full ppe.

I do think it was wrong to ask you to specify the reason for not wearing it but you would have been within your rights to say that you were not prepared to answer in a public place or that it was sensitive.

As an aside, nhs complaints take up a vast amount of clinician time and resources. Yes there are people employed specifically in this role, but the amount of paperwork and interviews involved with the clinical staff is shocking. (Even if the complaint is untrue - which I’m sure is not the case here- it still needs to be investigated fully). It causes stress and reduces staff motivation and ultimately causes staff to leave.

Surely an email outlining your experience and how it made you feel would have been a good idea instead? It does feel that you are pursuing monetary compensation which is inappropriate in this case.

I actually agree you shouldn't have had to explain to anyone except maybe the doctor or NP in a private room, as they ask your history. Definitely not in the waiting area with members of the public.

I will say that mental health IS just as important as physical health - you're absolutely right there. But what you're actually saying isn't that mental and physical health are equal, it's that your mental health is more important than the staffs physical health, which it is not.

And that's really where the issue comes down to. It's easier for us now a year in, with vaccines and more information to say you shouldn't have had to wear one, but last year was absolutely awful for medical staff, and this happened right in the middle of all of that. And I'm in the US, so no connection to your NHS. A year ago, people really were very afraid they were going to catch and die from covid - because they'd seen their friends, family and colleagues do so already.

You should get an apology for the way you were spoken to, but suing for this doesn't seem like it would help anyone. Not even you - having to relive this over and over again. If it was an issue back then, and you seem still just as angry now, I don't think going over it even more would help you.

What do you hope to achieve by suing?