Help without Anti Depressants

[SugarHut]

I'd really like some (kind,helpful) advice please, as I've seen some very harsh and condescending things written where people seem to genuinely be seeking help.

I have a 5yr old boy, and being very honest, I've never really even liked him...I feel like if I could press a button and it would take me back to never have fallen pregnant then I would press it like a shot. I make myself be as good a mother as I can, I hug him and tell him I love him, but I feel nothing. I don't feel repulsion, or hatred, but I feel nothing towards him. It makes me so sad...mainly for him, although I feel I hide it well and he's none the wiser. I long for the 2 days a week my mother has him when I can be me. I'm not a drippy "woe is me" failure, I'm a very strong woman, he's in private school, I have a very good job, which is not even very demanding...on the outside, I look like I have it made....but I wanted a girl so very badly, and every day I feel disappointed.

He's very smart, he gets outstanding reports, his behaviour is excellent, they are talking about putting him up a year in school...all things other parents tell me are amazing. On the outside I smile and gush and agree...on the inside I couldn't care less. I hate it.

Does this sound like depression? I can't bring myself to take any medication, so please don't advise me too. And please don't lecture me for "you shouldn't have had a child if you only wanted a girl" yes I did...but trust me if I knew I'd be this permanently disengaged and hate it to the extremes I do, then I would not have had him and saved us both. No pointless battering me for a decision I can not reverse, I feel bad enough as it is.

I look at other children at the school, and if I look at one of his little girl friends, I imagine it was my child and I get overwhelmed with these warm loving feelings, I want to pick her up and cuddle her, take her shopping, brush her hair, make cakes with her, read stories with her, I feel overwhelming pride and love even though it's a random child, then I look at him and want to cry. I am looking at him right now, and I picture him being a girl and I feel like there is so much love in me for a girl and he's just this child in my house that I don't even feel related to that's ruined my life.

What do I do??? Are there any non medication routes that actually work if I am depressed? Does it even sound like depression? I know these feelings aren't normal, and I know it shouldn't have taken me 5 years to say something about it. But anyone who has had a remotely similar experience please help me. x x x

It's next friday, thought i'd let you know before you get an abusive reply from op!

Breeze, it has been covered, briefly. She is incredibly loving towards him, I could not ask for more. He is literally the light of her life. Maybe it's because of how to her I am everything she could ever want in a daughter, and it is a child of mine so she loves him, maybe she has the boy she never had, or maybe it's a simple as she's a fabulous Nanny naturally.

Exhausipated, you do make me laugh, not in a patronising way, just that I'm smiling at how new posters seem nervous how I may potentially receive something. Please write whatever you feel adds to this thread, I'm still finding it beggars belief that people genuinely can't see the distinction between my responses to 99% of the wonderful people on here where we debate, challenge, question, discuss....and me getting tetchy with the other "special" 1%. And it is 1%, they just post, and post, and post so it seems like a higher majority. It properly makes me laugh now.

I do agree entirely that subconscious will combine with the conscious and there will be things pointed out to me during whatever therapy may happen that I don't see myself, or even knew existed within me. I do have a massive amount of self awareness though....I know am screwed up in the head in a lot of ways, but I also know that in other ways I am not. I think it's fairly obvious that I call a spade a spade and I have no problem stating some fairly cutting remarks about myself. If I thought for one moment I had some kind of personality disorder for example, I would be the first to agree. It's not denial that I don't, it's knowing myself, knowing my own mind, and some things resonate with me (I clearly have issues with creating perfection, which seem obvious now) and others do not (anger management, etc)
It's very interesting you pick up on the underlying love too. And a lovely thing that even though I never feel it, you guys can recognise it's their somehow. Reassuring.
Re my real Dad...he's never been a part of my life, as I had an immediate stepfather who has been Dad virtually from a few weeks old to date. He's awesome. My real Dad, I have never been denied access too, he's ok, in a position of very high power so he's permanently busy and never really has time to eat and sleep, so I didn't spend much time with him, but I never felt the need to, being supported so well by my Dad at home. I don't have any issues here, had my stepfather not been about, things may be very different, but he is my Dad, he's like a rock, he's the voice of reason when Mum and I clash, he's the man that takes The Boy to football matches, he's great.

I know we were both more than ok when she left him when I was tiny, we've spoken about it lots, and I was always an easy baby, and she's as independent and self sufficient as me, not to cope is not acceptable in our genetics if that makes sense.

x x x

Re. Your male friends: Do they inspire you at all for your sons future? ie, are you able to visualise your son as a man? What sort of man do you envisage him to be? What would be your hopes for him, if you have any.

I think your phrase "not to cope is not acceptable...." is very telling.

Have there been any (other) episodes in you life when you felt you had achieved less than perfection or haven't coped?

Is it possible you reframe things that have been less than perfect as not mattering or not impinging on your emotional well being?

I used to be something of a perfectionist (it's possible I've gone too far the other way now!). I distinctly remember the first time I heard a friend say, "perfection is the enemy of the good", it was a light bulb moment. That phrase (plus thousands of £s of therapy) has been so helpful to me. You might not ever have the perfect relationship with your son that you imagine you could have with a daughter, but you can still have a good relationship with him-if you get the specialist help you need.

So, all that was leading up to asking how you left it with the Anna Freud Centre-did you say you could have a half hour consultation?

I'm a perfectionist too harrap and it causes all manner of problems. I am very rigid and 'black and white' in my thinking. If something can't be perfect, then it is spoiled, flawed, wrong. I wonder if it's the same for the OP. As you say, her relationship with her son can't be perfect (and a relationship with a hypothetical daughter would also be unlikely to be perfect because...well, relationships aren't perfect) so it's just all wrong. There's no point going for the middle ground; for 'good enough'. That, at least, is how I feel about a lot of aspects of my life. If things aren't perfect, I have been known to deliberately sabotage them so that they are really shit, rather than just 'ok'.

Yup waterlego, you put it so well and I relate to what you say absolutely.

Perfectionism doesn't work long term as a strategy to get through life and be reasonably happy. It can't because as you say, there are no perfect relationships, we do age, we can't control other people's actions and (for the most part) we can't chose the gender of our children.

It took me till I was in my mid thirties (quite a long time ago now) when I was looking down the barrel of a nervous breakdown to begin to recognise and relinquish my rigid thinking.

It might have been mentioned before in this thread but I have been reading a bit about ACT (acceptance, commitment therapy). The stuff I have read seems a bit jargony but it appears to be mindfulness based and starts from the idea of truly accepting things as they are and the pain some things generate rather than trying to find ways to avoid that pain. Then committing to find strategies to make life as it is better.

Might be something worth researching Sugar?

I am really interested in the mindfulness type of therapies, thanks harrap for mentioning it as it has reminded me to look into it :) My strive for perfection provokes a lot of anxiety in me and anxiety is something I still haven't learnt to 'sit with'. I have always medicated it or fought it, in a variety of unhelpful ways. I am starting a masters course in the autumn, which I should be really excited about, but I am already anticipating the potential for disappointing myself with mediocrity and I really don't want to feel that way. I feel encouraged that you say you were able to start changing the way you felt in your mid 30s. That's the age I am now and I am hopeful that it's not too late to reverse this way of thinking.

Anyway, will shut up now so as not to further derail thread. :)

Jon Kabat-zinn's work on mindfulness is excellent. Also worthwhile -8 week mindfulness course in MBSR or MCBT.

A work in progress for me, but am much more aware of the need to be mindful, at least, even if I don't mediate daily. Particularly helpful with kids, I find. There's real comfort to be had in just focusing in the present moment and no further.

Do my male friends inspire me? No. They range from being hilariously funny, to super smart, three of them are so business savvy they are on the Sunday Times Rich List, and some are just wonderful people who are the best to spend a long lazy bbq afternoon with. I love them all in different ways. Every one of them is divorced with a woman who has taken the majority of their money and their children, which is all I see my son doing. 65% of marriages do, it's more likely he will be in this "norm" than not. Would I rather I had a daughter who could "control" (wrong word but I can't think of the right one) the situation, or would I rather have a son who is 65% likely to get financially and emotionally raped? Speaks for itself.

And no, there really haven't been any episodes in my life where I haven't felt I achieved perfection. I think perfection is impossible, so again the wrong word to use, but I have always worked on what I want until it is precisely that, it's perfect to me. Yes, it hadn't occurred to me that something imperfect doesn't matter, but I think I actually do think like that. Which is rather scary. And very unhealthy.

It's also that "perfection" seems to happen naturally to me, I am one of those gits where things just seem to go right all the time, without me doing anything really, but a lot down to my family and nothing or any real recognition that I've done. I remember once in a local pub, a terribly embarrassing moment, which now is bloody hilarious, but I wanted to die at the time....A guy that I used to date (very briefly) had a new partner, and I had heard she was being driven mad by him constantly jabbering about me. She came into the pub shooting dirty looks, and once sufficiently inebriated, tottered over and shouted "Well look at me, with my flash cars from daddy, and my house from mummy, you earned none of it and you're good for nothing except posing infront of a camera which is not down to any talent, you're just LUCKY SPERM" Credit to her, that's fucking hilarious now. But behind the hilarity, there's quite a bit of truth to that. It's why I got my accountancy/law degree, I was desperate to show people I was more than the gormless model they had me down as. The bubbly, fun, ditsy little clotheshorse. When I was about 18 I remember being at a wedding and people in a group nearby talking about me and my friends. "I imagine they'll all marry footballers." Like that was the best I could hope for and my dream. I was really angered by that. I do get written off a lot of the time, when I speak to people they nearly always comment on how well I can hold a conversation, as if I should be flattered, it's actually massively insulting. Well done you, you look thick as a plank, but have a gold star for stringing a sentence together.

Do you ever feel like you just expect to be good at everything, and wonder what kind of point you're trying to prove and to who? Maybe I'm not such a bad mother, I know I need serious help with feeling attachment to him, but maybe there's less to do with maternal inability, and more to do with this constant obsession for everything to run immaculately.

Bugger it. I feel like I've just taken a step back now :(

Haven't phoned Anna Freud Centre, will be doing so Monday....

x x x

On another point, he's been accepted into both of the village schools, and he'll be moving as of September. I think this is a really positive step. I think we both need to make our lives a lot more normal. I think if I felt more normal, I would be more accepting to "average" within both of our lives...

x x x

I think it's about 40% of marriages that end in divorce currently, so that's not something to feel too pessimistic about. And besides, what are your expectations/hopes for your son aside from what sort of marriage he might have? (If he even has one at all). Your males friends sound like a successful and happy bunch. No reason why your son couldn't end up in the same position, so long as he feels valued and has fairly robust self-esteem.

Re others' reactions to you: You perceive that you have been lucky in life and that others are perhaps envious of you (the latter is another feature of NPD but that is by the by as you don't have that). You feel have to prove yourself to others ('It's why I got my accountancy/law degree, I was desperate to show people...') because you don't want people to think you are 'just' a model. You were angered that people thought you might aspire to be a footballer's wife. In this thread, you have mentioned your qualifications and achievements quite a number of times. Why do you think it matters so much to you what others think of you?

I am not the excellent mother I wanted to be, and had envisaged myself being. I do love my children, despite some early bonding difficulties, but being a perfectionist has not helped me be a good mother to them. I feel guilty for bringing them into the world; for being their mother. I have been almost constantly disappointed by my 'performance' as a mother. This is the way my perfectionism manifests itself in my parenting. Yours manifests itself a different way; whereby it isn't you that isn't perfect, but your son.

Sugar - you sound, rightly from what you say, quite critical of the social mores/expectations of some in your social circle. Why don't you branch out a little and meet different kinds of people? Maybe, as you, suggest via the local primary school. It may do both of you some good.

I am currently an expat and the range of people here is vast. Fairly easy to hang out with the well-connected or the wealthy (along with other hangers-on) but to be honest I now find much of this scene shallow and boring. What excited me long ago at university now seems meaningless and ridiculously judgmental. And not about the important stuff! In my head, I label some friends "party people" - great fun for sharing enjoyable moments at my current stage but not keepers. Long-term friends at "home" in all cases are decent, trustworthy people who
share my values to a very large extent. Otherwise, what's the point?

Sugar I really don't see why you feel you've taken a step back, can you explain?

For what it's worth I thought your post was quite a positive one.

I used to strongly feel the need to make an impression other people, now not so much. For me the need to achieve and impress others was a product of terrible insecurity that stemmed from a dysfunctional childhood. I'm much more genuinely confident and comfortable in my own skin these days.

You feel that as a model you have come in for envy, hostility and stereotyping- I am sure you have. A mum at my son's school (her son has left now) was a model and I am willing to confess that as an er ... average looking woman I found it a bit difficult standing next to an amazing looking one (even more so when I went to a couple of her parties and the room was full of amazing looking people!) and if we had been the same age and thus "in competition" I'd have found it even more difficult. In days gone by I might have felt the need to put her down in some way instead of wanting to get to know her -I might be being a little unfair to myself there but I would definitely have found it an issue.

I presume that modelling involves intense scrutiny, competition and rejection? If so -out of interest - what's that like?

Waterlego-good luck with your master's-don't let your worries spoil something you want to do.

Hi op. Now back home.
I am finding something a bit curious.
When you were 20 and 21, and had your soldier husband, you wanted to give him a boy. Can you remember why?

I don't have any aspirations or hopes for him...I would like to think that he's happy in his future life, but because I have no real care in discovering the man he will become, I don't really have any real preference or interest in whatever he chooses to do.

I don't perceive I am lucky and others are envious. Others perceive me to be more than lucky, I have spent my life where the great British public's attitude is one of jealousy, and "look at that bitch who has it all." I say this because unless you've been on the receiving hand of it, you have no idea how extreme it is. In this country people are mega jealous of successful people, the kids that do well in school are bullied for being "square" the pretty ones are labelled as dumb, and I will get rather mad with anyone who disagrees with this, because first hand, it IS how you are treated. And how I have spent my whole life being treated by people, always that don't know me. People love to find out that the millionaire at the party is actually a prick, then they can give a reason to dislike them rather than admit jealousy. Harrap you are spot on with people feel the need to try and put you down rather than get to know you. Envy, hostility and stereotyping? Take that, times it by 200 and you will be somewhere near. Yes, in this job you get accepted a lot rejected a lot, you don't really give a monkeys, unless it's a job worth a fortune. For every screening, they already have an idea of what they want before you even turn up, if it's not you, you just smile and walk onto the next job which you'll then get.

My mentioning other qualifications than my main job on here, are purely for that reason. When people hear what I do, they visibly dumb down the way they speak to me. They make assumptions of being self centred and incapable of achieving much more than grinning at a lens. That I'm needy and have to be in the spotlight. They won't ever admit this, but they do. So, mentioning my main job, was to let people know that I am in that industry in case they thought it may have some kind of impact on the problems I have, and the mentioning of the others was to stop the thread being written in a manner and with the assumptions that it relates to a dumbass model, people lose that stereotype when they realise I am also a nerdy accountant and a ruthless lawyer. And I'm sure every single one of you will insist you would have made no different comments, or addressed me in a different way, but trust me, after 30 years experience of this, even if the person does it subconsciously, you would have, it's the bane of my bloody life. I don't care what people think, but when it comes to something like this, unless I pointed out the other things I do, jobwise, I assure you, the majority would have been concluding that I'm self obsessed, "want a girl to turn into a dolly like me" as some utter genius wrote earlier. Which would have been a waste of my time, and theirs.

Re wanting to give my husband (in my very distant past) a boy, he just wanted one and I was so desperate to make him happy that I wanted to have one to make us the family he wanted. The marriage wasn't even a marriage I was just infatuated, as girls often are of that age, and just wanted to make him as happy as I could. I do remember definitely wanting to give him a son though.

x x x

Do you think that if you had had a boy back then, that you would have been happy about that. I presume you would have been.

So does that really mean, that actually to you, a bot or girl is sort of an object, an appendage to you?

Managing to confuse myself here, so if you dont understand, I will try to resay it, and reword and rethink the question.

OP, it seems to me that things are very black and white in your thinking. The thing that I would contend here is that other people may have had different experiences to you and just because they have, it really does not mean that no-one believes your own experiences.

You say in your last post that you would get mad at anyone who disagrees with your opinion as your experience is fact. But I am one of those who was one of the highest achievers both academically and socially in my school and not once was I bullied. Why would my experiences make you angry? Are they not as valid as your own experiences? I am wondering why if someone has a different viewpoint to yours, you become so angry? Maybe this is why you have detached from your son as he is not what you wanted?

As for wanting a boy, you did indeed "give" your husband a boy but the relationship didn't work out. Perhaps there is an underlying subconscious resentment there that you gave your H what he wanted but it was for "nothing"?

My post should say boy not bot

Showtunes, I'm pleased that you were not bullied for being smart. Neither was I, and the only reason I wasn't was the way I looked. 99% of the smart children in my school were "put down" and laughed at by the less able children. It's the way of this country. In the USA you are applauded for achieving, here it is the opposite, petty jealousy. I'm not saying I will get mad for anyone's differing opinion, I'm saying if someone tries to come in with some p.c. cock and bull about how no, people don't all treat others like this. I've lived it for 30 years. You ask any one of my work colleagues how many genuine female friends they have, and they'll do the same thing as me. Laugh. Or ask them how many people take them seriously. 99.999999% of people treat you this way, as a child and as an adult. I am saying if someone tries to say that's not true, it is wrong. I think you take a lot of what I say solely at face value, you take them as black and white, and get the (slightly) wrong message. Read between the lines a little more. Also you need to re-read the thread re the husband thing, you have gotten that upside down and not going to retype it all out again.

Breeze, I have been asking myself that very same question. I just don't know. I could have had it and loved the child, I could have been in this boat, I can't possibly predict what would have been. One day I was telling him how it would make my life complete to give him the son he wanted, couple of months later I was divorcing him. It was "teenage" rubbish, that meant a lot at the time. I don't think it means the child is an appendage, almost an accessory I think you mean....and no, definitely not. The way I feel when I imagine I have a girl is so unbelievably strong, it's like the whole inside of me gets hot, and I think how desperately sad it is, if this is what most mothers feel naturally how amazing it must be.

x x x

Can I say, that the ideas and feelings you have about having a girl are just that.
I am a bit loathe to burst your bubble, and I probably wont anyway, but what say if your girl had big ears.
or big ears, big nose big thighs etc?

It seems to mean that you aim for perfection in everything.
But, as someone on MN once said, she went to the GP.
And the GP pointed out that

her perfectism is imperfect.
Because wanting to be perfect is inherently flawed, and therefore not perfect.
She said that the scales fell from her eyes from that moment on.
hth

Sorry to throw another spanner in the works here but I am no looker either. Also I'm an ethnic minority and was in a 99% white school. So yes, I'm saying that what you are saying is not true. It's true for some people but I don't think it's as high as you think it is. Again, your experiences are not EVERYONE'S experiences.

Your experiences do not invalidate others', just as others' experiences do not invalidate yours.

Can I ask why if you believe that it is so difficult to have a genuine female friend, you believe that having a girl would so amazing then? Just because you are related, it doesn't mean that you will be friends.

I have read the thread from the start and once again, you're coming across as rude to people who want to help you.

So far, I think that there are many underlying issues at hand that you need to discuss with a professional and you are fixating on how things would be better if you'd had a son. It's something you can't change and fixating on this issue means that you don't have to deal with the other issues.

And make of this what you will but I feel sorry for you OP. You seem very unhappy.

Breeze, of course you can say it...and if it's what you interpret from either my lack of expression through writing, or from they way you interpret things then so be it, but it's wrong. I know how I feel and that's not the case. What if my girl had big ears? What a funny question...then I would have a girl with big ears.

Showtunes, I appreciate what you're saying, you're in a minority. And that's a good thing for you. You interpret this as me thinking your point us invalid. You are taking things at face value, I think some people either "get" my way of speaking or don't. Working9 does, Shakey does, Harrap (whilst we have conflicting views on a few things, which is healthy) does. You just don't. And you'll take this the wrong way, I am all too aware. You read the black and white and focus almost on the grammar and literal words without getting the right underlying tone. I too am in a minority for not being picked on/disliked for being the "clever kid" in school. Most "clever kids" receive this unfair treatment. I didn't, but I can see that the majority of them did.

I do have a handful of close female friends, once women get to know me, they really like me. They all want to dislike me on first impression though, it's virtually human nature. Read Harrap's post a little above, refreshingly honest. I wish more people would own up to that. I appreciate it very much from her, as most people swear (lie) black and blue that they do not. I don't believe a girl would be blindly amazing, it's again not the right interpretation of how I feel, and meant in a totally unpatronising way, I can't explain it to you, other than to repeat what has already been written, and you will therefore just draw the same conclusion.

I don't think anyone knows what the issues are, this is a forum (although the understanding and help from some people I am truly blown away with), not professional help, maybe there are hundreds, maybe I just have one or two big ones. I'm hoping that whoever I may be referred to is able to pick through my brain and see what the hell is going on.

I'm definitely phoning Anna Freud tomorrow, and the big day/first step at the GP is Friday.

x x x

They all want to dislike me on first impression though, it's virtually human nature. Seriously? Do you genuinely believe this? What is it that makes you so certain of this?

Or do you reject before being rejected and then say well it was jealousy? Genuine questions here, just trying to understand.