Help without Anti Depressants

[SugarHut]

I'd really like some (kind,helpful) advice please, as I've seen some very harsh and condescending things written where people seem to genuinely be seeking help.

I have a 5yr old boy, and being very honest, I've never really even liked him...I feel like if I could press a button and it would take me back to never have fallen pregnant then I would press it like a shot. I make myself be as good a mother as I can, I hug him and tell him I love him, but I feel nothing. I don't feel repulsion, or hatred, but I feel nothing towards him. It makes me so sad...mainly for him, although I feel I hide it well and he's none the wiser. I long for the 2 days a week my mother has him when I can be me. I'm not a drippy "woe is me" failure, I'm a very strong woman, he's in private school, I have a very good job, which is not even very demanding...on the outside, I look like I have it made....but I wanted a girl so very badly, and every day I feel disappointed.

He's very smart, he gets outstanding reports, his behaviour is excellent, they are talking about putting him up a year in school...all things other parents tell me are amazing. On the outside I smile and gush and agree...on the inside I couldn't care less. I hate it.

Does this sound like depression? I can't bring myself to take any medication, so please don't advise me too. And please don't lecture me for "you shouldn't have had a child if you only wanted a girl" yes I did...but trust me if I knew I'd be this permanently disengaged and hate it to the extremes I do, then I would not have had him and saved us both. No pointless battering me for a decision I can not reverse, I feel bad enough as it is.

I look at other children at the school, and if I look at one of his little girl friends, I imagine it was my child and I get overwhelmed with these warm loving feelings, I want to pick her up and cuddle her, take her shopping, brush her hair, make cakes with her, read stories with her, I feel overwhelming pride and love even though it's a random child, then I look at him and want to cry. I am looking at him right now, and I picture him being a girl and I feel like there is so much love in me for a girl and he's just this child in my house that I don't even feel related to that's ruined my life.

What do I do??? Are there any non medication routes that actually work if I am depressed? Does it even sound like depression? I know these feelings aren't normal, and I know it shouldn't have taken me 5 years to say something about it. But anyone who has had a remotely similar experience please help me. x x x

Sorry for multiple posts.
I was just re-reading your OP and was (please forgive me if someone has raised this already) terribly struck by this segment:

'I look at other children at the school, and if I look at one of his little girl friends, I imagine it was my child and I get overwhelmed with these warm loving feelings, I want to pick her up and cuddle her, take her shopping, brush her hair, make cakes with her, read stories with her, I feel overwhelming pride and love even though it's a random child, then I look at him and want to cry.'

You can feel, by your own account, such 'overwhelming' 'warm loving feelings' for a little girl you don't know, you have nothing to do with, you just see across a playground. But your own child, whom you live with, whom you care for and interact with every day, there is nothing.

I feel this seems to indicate that feelings come in response to 'ideas' for you, ideas or ideals, rather than real human interaction - which makes me wonder what is going on in your interaction with your mother and whether it is the idea/ideal of the mother/daughter relationship driving that. It also says something to me of how very fragile - perhaps brittle is a better word - your feelings are, how they need to cling to ideas and schemas, can't enter into and go with the flow of life and what emerges out of it (e.g. having a real, live boy).

I don't know what this means beyond that, but I do know it's no way to live.

Sugar, you have written a little about your relationship with you son's father but not a great deal and what you did write was fairly clinical and unemotional (I know this is your style!) but I wonder what part this relationship has to play in how you feel about our son.

As you said, there was a time in your life when you appeared to be happy to have a boy (with a man you loved) and of course until the 20 week scan you knew there was a possibility of having a boy but yet were making all the usual joyful preparations.

I realise that you feel it's gender per se that is the problem but could you be taking anger (possibly not acknowledged) with your ex out on his son? I'm not suggesting this is the case but it's a possible factor that hasn't been explored so far (apologies if it has been and I've missed it).

Most people, I think, would be very angry with an ex who for whatever reason did not maintain contact and provide a measure of support (I remember your ex provides full financial support but I'm talking about support practical and emotional support in parenting).It also struck me that your description of you ex's behaviour made him sound needy and weak and I should imagine those characteristics are highly unattractive to you.

If your ex has no contact and little input into day to day parenting decisions your son is exceptionally dependant on you and presumably you spend a lot of time together. I should imagine the burden of having sole responsibility for your son could lead to 1) resentment of him and 2) a strong desire to maintain an emotional distance between you so as to leave a bit of head space free for yourself.

As for what your friends said about boy babies-well, as was said earlier, I imagine it was a group of women jumping on a male-bashing band wagon (I've don't that myself but mostly over stacking the dishwasher) but, without wanting to be rude about your friends, such comments are asinine and considering you have a son highly insensitive. I'd bet when and if your friends have sons the talk would change to how loving they are, how much less complicated than girls they are and other such clichés.

Sugar what do you think you should do? What will you do? Are you taking on board any of the suggestions to seek help?

I'm wondering if you're in fact seeking validation that its ok and justified?

This can't be sorted by a thread, even if people might have some good insights sugar needs proper real life support. Please take on board some of the suggestions above to seek help.

BlackSwan, That's quite accurate. Imposter is not a word I had even linked to this before, but I think it encapsulates so much of how I feel. almost a "why are you even here?" feeling.

The only thing, with the schooling, he's been there from aged 3 as he passed the entrance exam then....he's been there 2 years, the change won't be a big deal for him, he makes friends in seconds. And that's the honest truth. It will make no difference whether he remains there, or moves. He knows children in both the village schools I have viewed too.

x x x

Picardy, yes he is "punished" for what he is. I don't agree with the term punished, as he is in no way picking up on this.....yet. But yes my internal thoughts are solely because he's a boy. But I think we've all established that from the word go?

Last night was a shoot...the people making the comments were 4 models, one of the photographers, and a makeup artist (all female.) 2 I would consided friends, but only through work, the rest I barely know, and doubt they even knew I had a child, boy or girl.

Re, relating to a random girl child, it's not so much I am seeking the ideal, when I see a girl, I feel a natural immense rush of love for her, I want to ask how her days been, I want to know everything about her, I want to do things with her. My son I pick up every day and ask him to tell me about his day, solely because I think I should, but I have stopped listening after 3 seconds. I have no interest in a single thing that comes out of his mouth.

TV, I don't think males are awful. I prefer male company, most of my friends are male. For me, having a son is awful, it's a very different thing.

Harrap, way off the mark. I felt like this from the day I found out it was a boy. I have not improved or gotten worse. I chucked the ex out, 2 years later, felt a lot better for it, and there is no connection with his presence or absence and this issue. The only thing that (very) mildly irritates me about his father is that he can't separate myself from The Boy, and I think it's been long enough now that he should have done, and he genuinely still can't. Plays no part in my mental state.

Miemors, pointless to even acknowledge...again. Rolls eyes.....

Twas, if you had read the thread properly, you wouldn't have asked that....

I still feel like a little light has come on with the word imposter, I'm going to definitely tell that to the person I speak to...I don't know what it means to the situation that I feel he is an imposter, but the more I roll the word around in my head, the more I see how it's relative to nearly every feeling I have. Interesting.

x x x

Thing is though OP, I know that you don't see yourself as a unit with your DS but I don't think it's that unusual for your ex to see you as such. I guess from his point of view, when he thinks of you, he will automatically think of the son that you have together.

Does it bother you at all that you would be identified as being your DS's mother when thought of as an emotional entity?

Sugar, TwasBrillig is right. Your issues won't be resolved without urgent real life help.

Someone above mentioned narcissistic personality disorder. It is a horrible label and I dislike the use of the term "personality disorder" because I don't think a personality can be disordered as such, it's just a way of describing a sense of self that differs from the norm in a way that causes profound suffering to the person.

I don't know how you feel about it, but a lot of what you are describing here demonstrates that you struggle to feel empathy with your son as an individual separate person in his own right. For some people, while understanding that we are unique and individual ourselves on a rational level is straightforward, there may be difficulty on a less conceptual level with truly viewing others on their terms: that is, you can understand it with your mind, but not feel it in your heart.

If this were to be true of you, it might explain that to some extent, you had a vision of a life with a daughter and now that life has not materialised, it has fragmented your sense of self in relation to being a mother. You expected to be a loving mother to a girl and you have these strong feelings of love and empathy within that self-image. Yet it hasn't happened as you expected and you are left feeling a bit confused and bewildered at the strength of the sense of loss and also now not knowing what to do in terms of being a mother to this child or how to piece back together your life when it contains this insult.

I think the reason that narcissistic personality disorder has been suggested upthread is that it is a common behavioural feature (behavioural here referring to how the mind behaves as well as how a person does) to have a sense of your specialness and a profound belief in your worth as an intellectually and socially superior person. What you describe in terms of your reaction to the posts you don't agree with and the sort of language that you use (chimps, morons etc) as being something you see as straightforward in relation to how the thread has developed and not arising out of a sense of anger or injustice might suggest that there is something in this sort of way at looking at your difficulties.

Another thing that can happen in talking about problems if this sort of label were to be applicable is that you can place high value on opinions that seem to grasp the essence of your own experience while demeaning those who can't understand your experience. Not everyone responds to people not understanding their point of view in this way, and so many will read your responses and respond as they have done on this thread challenging you for stating your opinion of their contributions or ideas in such bald terms. It can be difficult to view these people as separate from you with ideas about your life arising out of their own emotions, experiences and beliefs. Again, you know that they have these with your mind on a rational level, but it surprises you in some way that they keep talking about feeling hurt by these words because you view how you are responding as entirely valid. Does any of this resonate for you or is it off the mark?

Again, I am not a mental health professional, just a service user but I have a lot of interest in how minds and language work and so I am curious as to what you would think about this sort of potential label as a way of understanding why there are continued challenges to your posting style here. Remember all labels are just convenient and incomplete ways of giving us a common vocabulary to discuss discrete behavioural responses to the world rather than saying anything about who you are. You are just you, really and you are suffering and in need of a way of addressing it.

Another feature of NPD is the individual's tendency to focus on achievements and successes, which the OP has done plenty of. She has also shown a preoccupation with the level of education of other posters.

Lol, seriously lol at Miemors thinking she has the same aspect and outlook as working9. Good to hear the message has finally been received and the thread is now hidden.

Showtunes, I wouldn't say it bothers me to be thought of as a unit with my son, I accept quite readily that we are "mother and son" and seen that way.

Tv...GP visit is next Friday.

Working9, I'll happily explain this,to you, for the last time mind, as you tend to acknowledge what I say, and rather than instantly dispute what I state as fact because you think you know my own mind better, see what I am actually saying. I do not have a personality disorder. You will see in lots of cases, I see a point that has been raised, and I will respond with, no that's not right and detail why. See last post, to Harrap, and TV. They had made observations, I can see why they would make those observations. They were not right, and they don't know this unless I point it out, and I try and explain why, as to not appear that it is a straight "NO" to any criticism or question.

When someone states something, categorically wrong, I will respond simply stating that it's not right. Then these people (who may be far smarter than me, or thick as a plank, to understand doesn't mean you are a genius or have to be) will reply not only that I am wrong, but the proceed to tell me how angry/deluded/blah blah blah that I am. It's their way of not handling that they can't grasp the subject content, and so they insist over and over that they do, repeating more utter rubbish. If I shout it loud enough and often enough it must be true right? If someone opened up to me, and I replied with my assessment, and that assessment was "I think you have daddy issues" (pure example here) and their response was, "no, I may have a lot going on, but I assure you, that's not even part of it" for me to then tell them, no I'm right, and these are your daddy issues.... for them to say, no, can we not waste time on this....for me to then reply, well, you have an attitude and you're in denial, and you need anger management and help with your daddy issues. That would make me a moron. One with a lot of nerve to tell someone that I have the correct assessment when they tell me quite straight that I have no clue. And I would be the first to call myself a moron in that situation. It's like telling someone who states, I will stroke your dog...No don't it bites.....No it won't dogs love me....Trust me it will bite....I have never been bitten by a dog before....It will bite you...I am telling you I will not get bitten....It will bite you. touches dog, get's bitten My astonished response being, what kind simpleton are you, how many times did I tell you in plain English??!! Then their response is to ignore their oblivious ignoration to the facts they have just been repeatedly told, then whine about being bitten and being called a simpleton?

I actually find it funny that I can take a lot of criticism, a lot has been made here, that is driven by people getting a real feeling for what my mental state is, and making statements/asking questions, which I actively encourage, and is really helping. The fact that no one can see my irritation is nothing more that the REPEATED refusal of others to be able to accept their assumptions are incorrect wasting pages and pages of my thread is almost so stupid now that I can smile at it. It's such a simple concept, I don't give a monkeys except my thread gets hijacked by this pointless drivel about matters that nothing to do with my mental state.

Your 4th paragraph re the materialisation, spot on. I know exactly what to do in terms of being a good mother, and how to act the part. I just have no feelings of wanting to be a mother to this child/a boy. It's like I can't be the mother I know I so desperately want to be.

Yes I do place a high value on the comments of those who can understand the issues in hand, and disregard those that haven't the first clue where I'm coming from. Don't confuse this (as I think a suprising majority are) with me thinking people aren't entitled to think whatever they like. They are. It's just plain common sense that I would consider and reflect the comments of someone making relevant and challenging points, as opposed to someone banging on (over and over) about something that has no part of this issue.

x x x

How do you know you don't have a personality disorder?

You're sounding, frankly, unhinged now.

And will you please stop using the word 'moron'. It is offensive.

Something again interesting today, which is possibly as a result of me talking on here.... I don't know whether it's good, or not, but it's something at least....

Picking The Boy up from the gates, his teacher comes out. "Can I have a word?" "Sure?" (uh oh....) "If The Boy tells you today that he is not allowed to win races at sports day, could you please tell him it's fine, and he can?" "Er, yes, of course I will, why?" "We had a sports day practice today, and he won every race, and the other children got quite cross with him and told him he musn't win"

And for a split second, I was really pleased. This time last year, The Boy was the most useless runner ever, falling over his feet. To those of you who watch Friends, think Phoebe's crazy running in the park. Yes, really. So it took me quite aback that he won every race, and again it was this tiniest flash, but I felt happy. I wouldn't say proud per say, but definitely happy. I don't now, recounting the story, but I did at the time.

On the one hand, this is a first, must be a good thing? On the other, this thread has got me thinking about so much, I question, is it? Am I actually engaging with something to do with him, or do I feel just a little pleasure from the fact something else in my life came first at something, as I do place a lot of importance on being the best.

Hmmmm.

x x x

Good Grief !

Working - you are incredibly insightful and articulate about narcissistic personality traits. I agree NPD as a "disorder" is too sweeping, people are too complex for such reductive labels, absolutely. (The Stately Homes thread is riddled with such NPD references, understandably, and sometimes I feel it can limit understanding). I have found it extremely helpful to read your post in regards to my mother who exhibits several such traits but has no realisation at all . It is said though that it is extremely difficult for anyone with such a lack of empathy etc to accept this or their effect on others.

Are you trolling or writing a book OP? honest question .

Am I writing a book? Or even better making this up. Are you actually fucking serious. Very unimpressed with that. Very.

Lol, moron.
xxx

Or is it
xxxx ?

Or even could be more apt ending for the more aggressive posts

Sorry, just answering for Op there

Twiddles thumbs... nice weather we're having.

For those interested (obviously the OP won't be) but, for those that are, here are some indicators of NPD. You need to have 5 of the following:

Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

For those interested, Calypso's prior posts have all but one been deleted by MN, and others responding to her helpful, eloquent and highly informative posts have sadly been wiped too....

Deliberately posting all day long regarding issues that have been specifically called time and time again as irrelevant and off topic and not of interest.... takes a special kind of, well "special"......

x x x

Calypso, yes that's helpful, seen before somewhere, think in Children of the Self-absorbed. Very helpful read, actually and for me less reductive, black & white thinking than Toxic Parents.