Mother and baby unit??

[martha2013]

Does anyone have any experience of such places? I'm 39+3 weeks pregnant with my very much planned and wanted second child. I have a diagnosis of bipolar and due to risks to baby have recently stopped my anti-psychotic. My psychiatrist thinks my mood is becoming high. I disagree. She is talking about mother and baby hospital after birth. I'm terrified and thinking of doing a runner!

Martha, have been thinking of you.

The difficulty with professional involvement is that they only get small snapshots of how you are and to an extent they are matching it against "templates" for how you are or should be that they have gleaned from the literature. This can feel very dehumanising but remember they are only looking at a tiny portion and estimating "risk" etc, they don't really know or appreciate YOU or who you are in your totality, even if they care and are empathetic. They're not your family or loved ones, they are doing a necessary job but it is just a job and try not to identify too much with their assessment of you because it isn't the whole picture.

I don't think the drugs are the evil you fear though.. and I really don't think they would harm your daughter. Have you managed to get any advice from any of the breastfeeding organisations? It might feel more neutral and balanced.

In terms of social care as support, as I got better I self-referred to an NSPCC PND group and it has been MUCH more human and supportive than psychiatric services.

I have a friend who is a social worker. She says to put social work's role in relation to mental health issues in context, you have to realise how non-interventionist social workers are with much, much more serious cases that are NOT due to illness e.g. there are 6 year olds caring for their mothers with heroin addiction who are prostitutes having punters in the house who are known to services and not removed, so believe me, they will do pretty much sod all with someone who is suffering depression.

On one level, it's a paper exercise to tick the box you have been "checked" in terms of risk and also to signpost you to things as appropriate e.g. like the group I am doing or HomeStart or other things that might support you in the home.

I was in the same situation as you Martha. My baby was older but I did not want to stop breastfeeding in order to start medications. I had teh same fears medications hurting the baby. I ended up in a normal ward for months, because there was no space in mother&baby unit. This was not very good thing and I am quite unhappy how things ended up. If I would have known this beforehand I would have asked for more practical help etc. just to stay at home.

How do you feel yourself? Can you cope without medication? I haven't read the whole thread but could you delegate as much of practical things to others so you can just concentrate on resting?

I feel like things are extremely difficult because I'm exhausted and I am not getting any pleasure because I'm so worried/having so many disturbing thoughts. However I am still coping and doing day to day what I need to. I still feel rational enough to be able to make the decision on meds. I don't know the best way forward with so many professionals now involved.

I have been referred to ss on a previous occasion by a psych nurse in hospital. I was very unwell and on a section 3 so was not responsible for my son anyway yet they took the case as a child in need and prevented me from being with him. It took 3 long months once I was well for them to close the case. I felt it was handled really poorly and they had very little understanding of my condition. My son was never in any danger and at 18 months it was traumatic for him not to be able to see me. The mh professionals agreed that ss input was at best unhelpful, at worst damaging. I am devastated they have contacted them again.

That sounds horrific, I'm so sorry.

I don't know what's best here and it must be exhausting.

If it were me (and that's easy to say when it's NOT), when I read posts from hummusbaby and others who have been where you are, I think I would go to the mother and baby unit so that I could have regular contact with the oldest and have the youngest with me and begin to move on from this.

I think I would be gutted by this, by the way... so I don't say this lightly. I can only just imagine being in your situation and at the same time I can't because I only had it suggested not pushed as is happening with you. What has your husband said to them?

It's such an awful situation to be in. I'm not surprised you don't know the way forward. I feel you should be able to make the decision about meds but it does sound like it's going to be taken out of your hands and I really don't want that to happen to you, I'd like to see you at least be the one to say I want to go in rather than being sectioned again.

Such a cruel state to be in.

Being somewhere safe with just my baby would be really good and the thought of some sleep is amazing but I can't go into hospital. My husband and parents would be devastated/angry and disappointed. Hospital admissions have ruined my life. At 18 I had a place at medical school, an international sports career and a group of friends I considered to be like family. Hospital made me lose everything, all my good qualities, all my friends, everything. I would prefer to consider suicide as an option than being locked up.

Hi Martha
Have read through this thread and my heart breaks for you. What an amazing and resilient woman you are. It is clear from your posts that your children come first followed by your hubby and family and your own welfare a little further behind like all of us mums.
I can't imagine what it's like to have people coming into your house and telling you what to do, giving you difficult choices to make and making you feel powerless.
You deserve to be well and happy. If spending time in mbu will make this happen quicker then you should consider it. Breastfeeding is important but your emotional health is more important and your little one will benefit more from you feeling well again. You have given her that first precious few weeks of breast milk.
I hope you start to feel better soon but wanted to wish you all the very best. X

Harriet I can't thank you enough for reading and replying. I am finding things so hard today and your kind words are helping me not feel so alone with all this.

Hi Im another one who had mbu 'suggested' so cant imagine what its like for you to be in that difficult situation - but just wanted to add just how incredibly strong you come across as in your messages.

I agree on the breastfeeding. For a different reason I was only able to feed one of my sons for 4 days (and the other for 3 weeks) bu everyone really emphasised at the time that it was good that at least they had some. They are both strapping nearly 6 footers now :-) but at the time I was so upset and worried about it. I really wish I could have just accepted it as unavoidable at the time.

Try not to put too much pressure on yourself re how your family will feel if you do end up going into hospital for a short time. The most important thing (for them and you) is to get well x

Hi Martha, I've been thinking about you and am so sorry that the psychiatrist has handled things in this way. You've had appalling experiences in the past and I understand how difficult it's been to allow the involvement you have done up to this point. I think she's been short sighted and and I think somone more skilled and experienced wouldn't have acted in such a way to erode any scrap of trust that might have been built up.

More importantly I'm pleased that it sounds like your husband is on board and on your side. I hope that her bad handling of things won't make you totally rule out the medication (of course it is up to you but make the decision that's right for you and your family and don't allow her to put you off the medication route unnecessarily).

You are extremely strong and brave and your children could not have a more devoted mum.

Is it possible to see another psychiatrist - perhaps even pay for a private consultation if that would be possible?

Is your husand due any leave from work? Maybe you could plan a little break or a nice week or two at home when you concentrate on getting lots of rest and enjoying your lovely children (and I've made a new rule that you're not allowed to do any house work!).

Would you consider taking half the dose of the medication to see how that goes?

Take care and get some sleep! x

Hi Martha

I posted earlier but it seems to have disappeared. I agree with Snap.. it seems so unfortunate to mess with your trust like this.

I don't think sometimes professionals think about what a hugely big deal it is to allow them access to your home at sensitive times of your life.. how dreadful it feels when they effectively are taking a stand against what you wish for yourself and your family in your own home.

I also agree you have been very strong and resilient in all of this and clearly at all times thinking first and foremost about the health and wellbeing of your children.

Did you mention or am I imagining it that you had a good relationship with another psych but now the perinatal one is involved? Could you discuss this with that person or are they no longer involved at all?

It would be really good if your husband could be off... I saw someone else say that their dh was signed off when they were ill, I think on the PANDAS page. If you want to stay at home I think that you have to really have a co-ordinated plan with your husband to prove the support is there until this crisis passes.

Someone also told me this week that they found the APNI service very good when they were having issues with the care they were getting from a perinatal team: apni.org/

Any chance of an advocate also? I think that the NHS has to provide independent advocates if you are being sectioned though I am not 100%. I really feel you and your husband need more support.

Don't know your financial situation but also things like getting in a cleaner or a home help or something like that might help? Is your older one at nursery - I think I remember you saying that you do a school run... could you sort out extra days etc? Our nursery also does private stuff by arrangement e.g. picking up and dropping off kids.

There is a way around this, there has to be. I wish it didn't have to be such an uphill struggle for you. Thinking of you and sending the famous "unmumsnetty hugs" x

Thinking of you Martha and hoping you are being supported. I nearly ended up in MBU with DD about 3 months ago when she was 4 months. I didn't end up going in, was supported at home and am feeling better most days now. I can relate to the fear of going in, and that they might make me stop bf to take medicine. I've been thinking of you all day and I just hope you're able to get the support you need so that you can get well. Sending love and strength.

It looks like there are lots of lovely people here who are rooting for you. Take each day as it comes. Perhaps talking to your own doctor might help. Talk to someone you trust. It will get better. It will x

Thank you for such lovely replies. I can't begin to tell you how helpful it is right now, you are all so thoughtful. Whoever says mumsnet is bitchy and judgmental should read through your kind words!

Another night with very little sleep, mainly as I couldn't switch off. Felt like my head was being bombarded with thousands of thoughts and it was hard to attend to them all. I am trying this weekend to allow my baby to be with my dh in another room. I can manage a couple of minutes while he does her nappy for example but am too anxious to get some rest away from her. I think he understands and is not pushing it too much. It must be hard for him not to get time with his new baby but he is not complaining. I do trust him I just know she needs me with her or she will get hurt.

Martha, promise that you will talk to your care team about these feelings. They seem very obtrusive, especially to sleep, and I don't know how you're functioning to look after a little boy and a baby girl as well as being unwell, you are amazing. Your care team want to help you and your family. Please trust them.

My dh has suggested he take some time off to help so that might be a possibility. Financially things are tough though, we had savings in preparation for me taking maternity leave but they have been decimated since she was born. Unbelievably our boiler, washing machine and now car all have broken in the last 5 weeks. Car needs a new engine! I know everyone has annoying life stresses like this but it does feel like someone is taking the piss.

My dh did ask how I would feel about going back to work early to help us cope. Obviously this just feels so beyond me I can't even think about it. I can't imagine ever leaving her let alone doing my job. But I know we need my wage so it's more pressure not to go into hospital.

I wish I had an escape. Every time suicide gets stuck in my head, one of them does something lovely and I know how selfish it would be to leave them behind. I just dont know what to do.

Life does tend to take the piss like that .
If necessary take out a small loan just to get you through this bit and try and hold onto the fact that this horrible horrible time won't last forever. You'll be able to get your finances back in order / go back to work etc - but just not at the m

Sorry - just not at the moment.

Re the suicidal thoughts. I've put this on here before but it's something that I read a few years ago that I think is helpful.

It was something suggesting that if you just can't get the thought out of your head then tell yourself 'ok if things are still this bad in two years time then I'll think again.'That means that you're not putting yourself under the pressure of thinking I'll have to feel like this for the next fifty years - and if course you will feel much much better within 2 years. Then when the thoughts keep coming into your head you can say 'look I've delayed any decision on that - and I'm not giving it any more thought now.
I know it's not as simple as that - and hope it makes sense - but I did find it helpful.

Hi again
Those thoughts of suicide creeping in can feel like an option when times are tough. You are exhausted, your head is busy with thoughts and you are overwhelmed.
Take your days moment by moment if looking ahead seems impossible. Admitting you need more help is not a sign of failure it's a sign of strength. The quicker you get what you need the quicker you will feel like yourself again.
Whatever the solution is....more sleep, mote family support, medication, mum and baby unit you should try to remember that you will get better and this is not something that you could prevent.
The anxiety sounds horrible. Sleep is such a healing prospect and when your head can't switch off it doesn't help.
Speak to someone you trust and share your thoughts with them. You've done really well so far but if things aren't getting any better then by sharing your worries the people who love you can help you feel better quicker. X

Can you take a mortgage holiday? We had to do this so that I could take unpaid mat leave though now I am on sick leave. It helps.

I think the fact your dh is saying about work shows how well you are coping on the surface... I think sometimes men don't see how severe things really are for us when we are doing anything at all e.g. feeding the babies, getting them up etc... because let's face it, if men got PND and these illnesses they'd most likely be floored far sooner than the average woman.

I remember that anxiety so well, the feeling you can't be more than a foot away, not sleeping or sleeping in a shallow way, being exhausted and not being able to sleep.

This will pass, this will pass - the thoughts of suicide too. You can do this and you can get through this. I read something helpful which is that 1 in every TWO people will seriously consider suicide at some point in life but less than 1% die by suicide every year (or something low like that). The thoughts are unpleasant but they are just thoughts. Let them pass.

Hi Martha, I hope you managed some rest last night. My heart goes out to you as I was in such a similar position when my youngest was very small.
I too hadissues with separation from my newborns, which stems from my own adoption. Do you know why you feel your daughter will come to harm if she is not with you?

One of my 'tools' for when I'm sinking is to sit outside with a cup of tea and do some mindfulness. You could do this with your daughter, tell her what you can see, hear, feel the wind etc. I'm aware this doesn't change things but may give you a few minutes away from the awfulness of what you are thinking & feeling.

My son is 22 months, still breast feeding and I'm still taking antipsychotic meds. I trusted the breast feeding helpline more than my perinatal psych with regards to meds in breast milk- have you had a reply yet?

I know work is ages away for you yet, but I'll share my experience. I have done a staged return to work, starting at 2 days a wk. I don't find it easy going to work and it comes at a price, some weeks I do very little as I'm so tired from it whilst being on meds. The good side though is it helps structure my week and keeps a foot in my career.

Please don't be afraid of meds or mbu. What you so desperately need is rest and support to get better. It's so positive to hear you see how much your children need you. I hope today is better for you.

If I were you I would go to mbu. How long do you think you can continue like you are doing now?

There is some problems with our baby and they might have been caused by the sudden and long separation from me. I saw the baby only occasionally.

Mbu is over 2 hours away and we don't have a car at the moment. I'm sure that my little boy who is very sensitive would endure problems if I went in. He is attached at the hip with me and has always been a bit of a mummy's boy. I couldn't leave him.

Everyone keeps saying I can't continue like this, my husband and doctor included. I have felt on the edge, like I can't continue several times and yet five weeks on i still am going. I accept that my thoughts are odd but I'm not psychotic. Maybe I have to just keep going, day at a time. Maybe if I can keep going things will get better.

Martha the only thing is that if you are persistently unwell it may cause problems too. I have had to admit this in relation to my older boy recently as I didn't have treatment after his birth when I was similar to you in terms of anxiety and not being able to be separated, sitting over his cot watching him breathe and freaking out every time I started to drift off. I was there but I wasn't there, if you know what I mean.

He's fine and a gorgeous caring playful little boy but I can see such a huge difference between him and my youngest in terms of attachment. Ds2 has been so much more secure with me, even though I was quite ill, but I do think that the treatment really helped. I'm sorry now that I was so stubborn and didn't get the help then.. but I was determined to do it on my own and I have to admit I don't now think that was the right decision. I did all the things you are doing in terms of caring but I wasn't anywhere near my best me and by doing it on my own I let that carry on too long.

There is a reality that if you keep going things probably WILL get better... but it will take longer and you are enduring an awful lot. Is that fair on you or them? I carried on after my first baby with nothing and looking back I can see that was the illness... and it was pride and shame and all those things.

Your previous experiences in hospital are standing in your way but as many have said here MBU isn't like a general psych ward... and many people who have experience of both would never darken the door of a general ward again without being carried in kicking and screaming but MBU is different.

Also in terms of meds, I totally hear you. I am hoping to try to conceive and have to stay on my meds at the dose I am on... I tried to go off but started relapsing immediately. There are risks with staying on but I can see now that the risks from depression are so stupidly high that I have had to find a way to accommodate the risk to the potential baby because I can't be ill again for my other two boys. It is such a cruel choice that we face when we have these illnesses but your family needs YOU Martha, not the shadow of you that they can access when you are unwell.

I am thinking of you all the time x

Martha, glad you're keeping going and that you're getting so much support on here.

I think all the posters have made really good and helpful suggestions.

I think working9while5 (sorry if I've got this wrong) is saying that you have to balance the effects for your daughter of taking the medication while breastfeeding agaisnt the effects on your daughter of you not taking the medication. It isn't as simple as protecting her best by not taking the medication while you're breastfeeding her.

It's so clear how much you love both of your children and I think you're incredible in how well and how much you're doing and contending with a nasty illness too (you're doing well by anyone's standards though I don't just mean doing well for someone who's ill). I know you are being really selfless here but sometimes it can be hard to see a situation clearly when we're right in the middle of it. I wonder if a friend of yours was in a similar position how you might advise them?

Also think the mortgage holiday is a brilliant idea. Maybe your husband could ring up and ask if it would be possible?

Also, would your husand's employers be open to him taking a period of flexible working time (if he can't take time off). Maybe some useful info here www.maternityaction.org.uk/workingparents.html

Take care. x