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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Bottl · 11/10/2020 13:38

Flying - great nsv! It's a fantastic feeling

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2020 16:02

That's a very motivating jeans NSV, Flying
Good for you

Resisting both cake and greggs definitely shows you are winning, Bottl
Noise is such a pain

My gym had a new trainer this week who blathered continually during her spin, pump & Pilates, which drilled a hole through my head yesterday.
She was also expecting us to do circuits & share communal mats, along with breaking other gym SD rules, so I don't expect her to last long.
In the meantime that will be Saturdays & Thursdays when I organise my own exercise

MadAUnt If your dark choc is < 85%, I recommend you go for 85% and then 92% e.g. Lindt Mild Excellence
That won't be a problem on NFDs, so long as you keep it to within say 40g

The other recommendation is to cut all snacks between meals, even on weekkends and holidays, to help yourn insulin metabloism
Snacking even occasionally keeps the habit going and then people tend to relapse

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 11/10/2020 17:14

That sounds annoying Bigchoc! Where was Norman?
I generally have 70%+, so I should maybe upgrade. Yes snacking is a constant battle - generally weekends only, have got it sorted in the week when working.
Well done Flying and Bottl!

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2020 20:47

Norman is Wednesdays & Fridays, MadAunt
he is evil Grin, but the consummate pro
The most knowledgeable and effective class trainer I have ever had;
he shares the science in the (very brief !) rest breaks he allows

I recommend Lindt Mild Excellence 92%, which naturally has v low sugar,
but the higher cocoa content it is an acquired taste that you need maybe a month to train your pallate to like
You'll find it's not so moreish, so can easily be eaten in moderation
So, first give away your 70% ... who do you like that much ? Grin

Mosely and most fasting experts who have done the research agree on No Snacking

. for the overall higher calorie - and usually junk calorie - consumption
. because it makes the day insulin-dominant and hinders fat-burning between meals and overnight, if you snack late
. because the continual high insulin increases the longtem risks of insulin resistance ==> preT2 ==> T2

You may remember the graphs I sometimes plot about "why we should never snack"

Enjoy your treats as part of an NFD meal, say as pud

  • it also helps moderation that you are nearly full before you start
OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 11/10/2020 21:43

Thanks folks, my freezer is full of birds eye steam portioned veg and other frozen veg as well. But I'm not good with organising the chicken / fish side of it. But you are right, I just need to get to it and power on

KylieKoKo · 11/10/2020 22:56

I'm fasting again tomorrow, who else is?

On the menu is

Miso soup with a salad of spinach tomato and cucumber

A small portion of veg chili with Romanesco broccoli on the side

An egg and a diet tomato cup a soup

KylieKoKo · 11/10/2020 22:58

Well done @FlyingByTheSeatof

I live in leggings and pj bottoms these days!

FlyingByTheSeatof · 12/10/2020 01:14

I only had to put them on because I was going out to meet friends otherwise it's baggy mum type jeans, which are as soft as PJ's theyre so worn in now. I was living in dresses but it's too cold for that now.

I havent counted calories the last couple of days. I havent been going particularly wild and it was quite nice to have NFD's and not really think about food until I was hungry or having to cook for others.

I decided to cook some veggies in the slow cooker instead of roasting them and my DD said it smelled of farts Grin that'll be the cabbage then. Suffice it to say I declined to eat them today and they're now in the fridge waiting to become some kind of a non stinky salad.

MadauntofA · 12/10/2020 06:21

That's a great NSV Flying!
I'm joining you today Kylie. I have miso soup for lunch, then mushroom "pizzas" with a poached egg. Anyone else fasting today?

Whattodowithaminute · 12/10/2020 06:34

I’m joining you madaunt and kylie; black coffee, miso soup and omelette for dinner. Should do b2b or lighter day tomorrow too will see how I’m doing.
Well done on jeans flying
Welcome back inthethick I think you were here with me before? Needless to say there are a few of us who have let things slide over the last few months, sounds like you’ve had a worse time than most-look after yourself...

Bottl · 12/10/2020 07:08

Good luck today, Monday fasters!

Mushroom 'pizzas' sound interesting, Madaunt

MadauntofA · 12/10/2020 07:21

They are lovely Bottl. Couple of flat mushrooms brushed with olive oil, some tomato paste, herbs and small amount of grated cheese and sliced cherry tomatoes. Stick under the grill, not too high till the cheese has melted, then eat!

Bottl · 12/10/2020 08:12

Yum!! Will certainly be trying that - thanks for sharing.

Bottl · 12/10/2020 08:22

Weigh in day for me and I've lost 4lbs.

Just need to keep focussed now

Darker · 12/10/2020 08:28

Bracing myself for first FD of week 2. Managed 3 FDs in Week1. Planning the same this week.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 12/10/2020 08:42

@KylieKoKo @Darker @MadauntofA I'll be joining you all today. Not really planned what I'm eating yet but I think chicken and veg will be involved

@Bottl well done that's brilliant

Bottl · 12/10/2020 09:53

Thanks, Flying.

I'm in such a grump this morning and am struggling to feel any excitement about it when I know I should. Going out for a walk to try and shift my mood!!

FlyingByTheSeatof · 12/10/2020 10:10

Well it is Monday after all @Bottl so not the most inspiring of mornings at the best of times - just walk it out xx

Beautiful3 · 12/10/2020 10:23

I'm fasting with you, Monday fasters! Fingers crossed we make it through today! Mondays, my first fast day is always the fastest.

KylieKoKo · 12/10/2020 12:23

I'm fasting and feeling the cold today. I'm currently working next to a radiator wrapped in a blanket.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/10/2020 13:30

Congratulations on your SV, Bottl
An excellent start back

Good luck, madaunt, kylie, darker, flying , beaut and any other Monday fasters

Flying "my DD said it smelled of farts" 🤣
Then at least it won't be nicked by her !

On cold FDs, how about a hot Bovril, Kylie
and cups of herbal tea e.g. Rooibus is naturally sweet
I do a few pressups too Grin

OP posts:
KylieKoKo · 12/10/2020 17:00

I am off to a HIIT class now.
I have a spicy veg chilli for dinner afterwards which should warm me up!

Whattodowithaminute · 12/10/2020 17:49

Kitchen closed on 480.
Well done Bottl excellent achievement!
Hope all other Monday fasters doing well!

Beautiful3 · 12/10/2020 17:54

Well done, Monday fasters! Kitchen closed at 603. Not a great day but hey ho, tomorrow is another fast day.

MadauntofA · 12/10/2020 18:06

Done here at 490 including a cup of tea for later. Well done fellow fasters!