5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Morning all

I'm having a Saturday miniFD. Anyone else fasting ?

B: Black coffee
Rhine walk a.m.
L: Grilled salmon strips & mixed salad
2h gym - pump & spin classes
S: chicken & asparagus soup, no bread
2l water

Bit of a personal question BigChocFrenzy, but do you live up to your user name on NFDs?

3lb off this first week very happy with that.

bcf pasta is for dinner, gonna skip breakfast, have soup or salad for lunch and enjoy every mouthful of the prawn and smoked salmon pasta later 😋

No, Darker ! My username is from when I started 5:2, back in 2013
I just didn't change it

Back then, after several weeks, I realised my weekend habit of choc donuts, choc cheesecake & choc cookies came to an extra 3,000+ calories (!)
which was cancelling out my FD deficit
Also, ridiculously unhealthy and past time I formed the longterm habits I needed
I suspect it was only being a lifelong exerciser that stopped it causing conditions like preT2 etc, but being post-meno then it was affecting my waist

I cut out chocolate except on 2 NFDs for a few squares of 85% & 92% cocoa choc that I trained myself to eat,
so I was 2:5ing it - something iirc Mosely once suggested for breaking such habits

I kicked the sugary habit quite easily, not just choc but all added sugar treats
Now, I only have sugary treats every couple of weeks and not junk, but a pud at a good restaurant

Congratulations on your SV, Robert
Your pasta sounds delicious and healthy too

I hear you BigChoc. One benefit of working from home has been breaking my office pain au chocolate habit.

I like the idea of only having certain foods on a 2:5 basis.

Your miniFD menu sounds delish, BigChoc.

Robert - 3lbs is fantastic! Congratulations enjoy your pasta

I'm going to have a FD tomorrow.

Do any of you reward yourselves at certain milestones (assuming people are aiming for weight loss, aswell as the health benefits of this wol)? I'm trying to think of something that's not food, not stuff and not spending money for the sake of spending money. Ds and I are going travelling next year so I am considering putting away some money for every 1lb lost and then paying for a sightseeing tour maybe.

Bottl I recommend non-food rewards at milestones like every stone
and the big celebration of dropping into a lower BMI class
Also - for those with a fair bit to lose - after every 10 lb / 5 kg, to divide the goal into lots of minogoals

Typical non-food rewards:
new music, video, lipstick, nail colour, nails done, hairdo, pedicure, foot / neck massage, bag, scarf, hat, exercise kit ....

If you buy clothes partway through, then charity shop is a good idea, so you don't use expensive new clothes for just a couple of months

Exercise gear is stretchy, so new kit lasts much longer through your weight loss journey

Thanks for the tips, BigChoc.

Each stone off and lowering BMI are exactly the milestones I'm going to mark so thanks for the ideas.

I'm trying to reduce the amount of stuff I have so am avoiding buying anything new - the number of things in this house means I never need to buy anything ever again . This is a work on progress - I have a very active eBay account and am working my way through it all slowly.

Make the reward "experiences" then ... but where you don't want to buy treat food

and experiences don't have to be fancy, or even new:

binge watch a boxset you enjoyed years ago
dance to your fav music and invent new moves
download free YouTube routines
drive to somewhere with beautiful scenery / enjoyable to walk or cycle

I'm interested Bigchoc in how long it took you to change your habits to
A more healthy version? I have changed some - drinking much more water than tea is now ingrained in me. My diet has also changed over the last couple of years to a veg/ pulse heavy, much less processed carbs and meat light diet, but my occasional binges of sweet stuff persists. I do prefer dark chocolate, and have less of a sweet tooth, but sometimes I just seem to crave it. Can't blame the hormones either!

( having just eaten enough dark chocolate this evening to negate any FDs this week )

madAunt Once I calculated the extra 3,000 calories at the WE, I decided to change
2:5ing of added sugar treats took about 2 months to kick the urge
Now these are every 2-3 weeks or so

Even at uni, I've never had more than an occasional glass of something, so nothing to change in my alcohol habits
In German wine country now, I have a glass of 5% alcohol Federweisser or mulled wine with 1-2 lunches per week in Autumn & winter, less the rest of the year.

I read research referenced by Mosely and others;
realised even "healthy" snacking & frequent small meals tend to add weight and increase the risk of insulin resistance

I had almost no problem giving up snacks between meals,
because I was brought up at a time when we only ate 3 or 4 meals per day, no snacks between.
So I only had to revert to this timing

That is really interesting Bigchoc. I have no problem with alcohol- have the occasional glass of red with a meal, maybe once a month. My meals are now quite healthy and balanced, veg heavy. I generally avoid heavily processed food, and eat good quality bread and meat when I do eat it. I have reduced the snacking, but could probably improve at weekends there. My main issue it seems is the sweet stuff at the end of the meal on NFDs-1 square of dark chocolate turning into too much + other bits I find! I probably need to MFP all my "additions", and do as you suggest 2:5 for dark chocolate as that is my weakness!

Gutted.

Weighed myself and I'm 10 stone. I was 9st 4lbs last time I checked in here.

My eldest has been up every single night like a newborn since mid July. He's taken a reaction to the MMR Booster we've lost a family member to Covid and another unwell in hospital with it.

I feel yuck and need to do something with my weight though. We've been relying heavily on takeaways to get us through. I need to take charge.

Please talk to me in baby steps. I'll start the day off with a huge glass of water and keep drinking. I've definitely been dehydrated too and drinking fizzy to keep me awake.

intheyhickofit it sounds like you’ve had a tough run so be kind to yourself.

That sounds really tough inthethick. I'd give yourself a break. At 10stone you can't be seriously overweight, so I'd concentrate on making good choices, especially less reliance on fizz as that's going to make you feel worse in the long term, and some easier filling meals rather than take aways. Drink plenty of water, plenty of veg and protein and see how you feel with FDs, maybe try mini FDs for a while till you are back on track. Lack of sleep is a big stressor, and increases carb craving, but I appreciate not easily solvable when you have a LO waking every night. I hope your family member in hospital gets better soon.

Thank you so much. I'll keep posting to keep accountable

@MadauntofA I've been buying salad and veg but its all been going to waste because in the end I don't have energy to prep it. You are right on the fizzy front , I've had 3 cans some days

Inthethick, it's not easy at all, but hopefully a few tweaks can make you feel better about things. If budgets aren't tight, can you buy those microwave frozen veg sachets that take a couple of minutes? Do you have some time to prepare some veg at the weekend and bung in the oven, then portion out for a few days? Make some veg sticks and put in the fridge to add to meals instead of having to make a fancy salad? It does take mental energy, which sounds like you probably have little of at the moment, but if you have a spare hour or so at the weekend, listen to some music and do some preparation. I find it quite therapeutic in the kitchen, but I totally get that not everyone does!!

So sorry to hear about your relatives, inthethick 💐
You've had a really tough time

Water, including unflavoured fizzy water is good

You need the easy options, because obviously you haven't much energy or headspace for food prep
Instead of takeaways, which are usually calorie bombs,
I suggest buying healthy ready meals - even the ones from Marks or Waitrose are probably cheaper than the takeaways and some little portioned packs of the prepared microwaveable veg

@inthethickofit19 - sounds like you're having a really rough time and getting through it as best you can so don't be so hard on yourself.

I'm fasting today so will keep you company.

I woke up with a headache and next door have builders in who having been banging constantly since 9am - I can hear it in every room of my house so nowhere to hide. I'm so sensitive to noise at the moment.

I've had a coffee so far and have planned to have 1 poached egg with half a thin bagel when I feel I can last no longer. Salmon fillet and veg this evening.

My sister has been over this morning with a Greggs delivery which I declined so that's both cake and greggs turned down in 3 days - winning!!

To make life easier I do loads of traybake type meals ie chuck everything on a tray and bung in the oven.

I was so pleased yesterday - I couldn't find my usual go-to high waisted suck in the flab jeans anywhere so tried on a pair of jeans that have been too small to wear since I bought them and they fitted really well. Such a relief to feel good walking out the door again.