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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2020 10:56

No neutral evidence for collagen creams that I have read so far

  • just the usual blurb from commercial firms and their lobbying groups that want people to spend and spend ...

I'd be interested if anyone has some peer-reviewed scientific studies with new evidence though

OP posts:
ilovebagpuss · 07/10/2020 12:38

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy I do need to try and get out in the day especially when there is a little sunshine.
I know I don’t eat enough oily fish either I might have to buy some winter vitamin supplements and try and add in more tinned fish and salmon.
Fast day protein I will definitely take that on board as I do have a tendency to go vegetable thinking lower calories but it’s not as satisfying as a chicken breast etc.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 07/10/2020 13:10

Ok then @BigChocFrenzy I'm now carrying out a Boolean search on evidence based sites with peer reviewed studies Cochrane and PubMed to start off with. From first glance HA is better than collagen for areas at least such as nasolabial folds. Research finds fillers and fractional laser effective. Obviously I need to read a bit more in depth but yes I think you've saved me from wasting my time down that rabbit hole of even looking at topical creams.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 07/10/2020 13:29

Ok basically yes collagen in topical treatments is not as effective, if at all, as products I'm already using so I'll stick to those for now as preventative measures and if I care further down the line when things go to pot then fillers and botox it is Grin

KylieKoKo · 07/10/2020 13:43

@ilovebagpuss

I find these foods really satiating for the amount of calories and I tend to build my fast day meals around these

Miso soup - the brand I use is only 17 cals per sachet.

Cottage cheese - normal cottage cheese not the nasty low fat version

Boiled eggs

Prawns

I also find adding chilli, garlic and ginger really helps me to feel satisfied and I cook with olive oil sprat rather than just adding oil which saves more calories for the actual food.

Beautiful3 · 07/10/2020 17:55

Kitchen closed at 680. Hoping to do my third btb fast day tomorrow. Well done Wednesday fasters, good luck for those fasting tomorrow.

Darker · 07/10/2020 18:17

I made a fabulous courgette and tomato thing yesterday to get me through today but my son ate it (all of it!) when he came in last night. I wasn’t anticipating this because he said he was eating out and he hates courgettes.

So it’s been two small bio-yogurts and an apple for me. Too much sugar but you know, best laid plans and all that.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2020 19:55

Well done on your FD3, Beaut and good luck for tomorrow
You have obviously found a fasting system that is sustainable for you

Those are great choices, Kylie for healthy, filling FD foods

Bagpuss I'd just add salmon, mackerel, sardines to that on NFDs
If you are buying vitamins, I recommend a combination of D3+K2, to help boost your immune system for winter - drops are a good form for absorbption.

Darker 🤣 Poor you, that courgetted thingy sounds wonderful, then along came the courgette thief, so unkind !
You recovered well, but your poor tum must be rumbling
Next time, maybe wrap up your FD dish, write "RESERVED" on it and threaten bodily harm tell him not to eat that !

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2020 19:56

Oops, well done on your FD2, Beaut
< cleans specs >

OP posts:
KylieKoKo · 07/10/2020 21:42

@darker

That's horrible! I prep my fast day stuff the day before and put it in Tupperware and dp is under strict instructions not to touch it!

I'm fasting tomorrow and he's brought himself a delicious looking fatty steak. I think I may have to leave the room while he eats it. And remind myself that I can eat steak on any of the other 5 days of the week if I desire it.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2020 22:35

Good fridge security, Kylie

You can chant the 5:2 FD mantra:

"I can have it tomorrow"

(and persuade him next FD to try a boiled cabbage dish !)

OP posts:
Coffeeandcookies · 08/10/2020 00:01

FD here, finished on 718. Looking forward to breakfast tomorrow morning!

FlyingByTheSeatof · 08/10/2020 00:17

MiniFD Kitchen closed on 873.

Good luck to all fasters tomorrow.

moonlight1705 · 08/10/2020 09:53

Poor you darker I'd be tempted to go eat something of his now Grin

Am on my 2nd FD of the week and got a lovely lentil salad lined up. I was cooking it last night and had to stop myself throwing in other bits like bacon as 'it would taste nice'. So it is a solid 175 calorie portion for lunch with my small jacket potato for dinner.

Darker · 08/10/2020 10:07

Ha ha - he was mortified, poor lad. I’m actually pleased he ate my courgette thing because we have a pile of them from the garden needing eating.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2020 11:18

Well done on your Wednesday FD, Coffee, Flying

Good luck today, Moonlight
Your FD salad is very healthy and delic enough without bacon

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Beautiful3 · 08/10/2020 13:13

My third btb fast day ending in 671. That accounts for a snack, I'm having later! I'm happy to have it done and dusted for this week. Well done Thursday fasters.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 08/10/2020 13:16

This stupid cold I've got with tickly, runny nose, sneezing and achy teeth. I lose my appetite for most of the day then get ravenously hungry later on. I had a lovely roast chicken dinner last night though which felt very nourishing. My DS asked me to make my penicillin soup (chicken stock from the bones) which he seems to really like. I'd better get onto making that now actually.

Beautiful3 · 08/10/2020 13:35

I'm sorry you're unwell flying. I had a stinking cold last week and it does make you feel hungry and tired. Hope you feel better soon

BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2020 15:04

Well done on another good b2b2b Beaut !

Sorry to hear about your cold, Flying
I hope you get better soon

There is an old recipe for chicken soup to kill colds which involves adding 40 cloves garlic to a big pan of soup
Kills off any lurking vampires too - and any chance of romance !

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FlyingByTheSeatof · 08/10/2020 15:42

40 cloves, yeah that should do it for sure @BigChocFrenzy Grin

I can smell the soup now from my slow cooker, sometimes I leave it on low overnight but not today probably.

I had some left over chicken and lentils earlier. I'll have some broth later followed by yogurt and berries and thats my lot. Off to make a cup of tea.

MadauntofA · 08/10/2020 16:17

40 cloves of 🧄 - I love my garlic but that is a crazy amount. You'd have to have a completely blocked nose and no sense of taste to eat that - may be an option for those with COVID!

BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2020 16:26

I normally add in 6 add a time - no cold

OP posts:
robertsmithscorpsebride · 08/10/2020 17:13

Evening all, had a busy few days at work and home but successful nfds (on course for today even accounting for a glass of white wine with dinner)

Well done to all the fasters Smile

Fd#2 planned for tomorrow as Friday's are usually bad days for me in terms of too much wine at the end of a busy week and then snacking Blush anyone else fast on Fridays?

Hope you feel better soon flying I had that last week and could have eaten the world, definitely agree that you feed a cold and starve a flu!

darker do you have a recipe as I LOVE courgettes Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2020 19:24

Oh yes, please, Darker
A courgette recipe would be very useful for several folk
and what sides you have it with, if any

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