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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
FlyingByTheSeatof · 06/10/2020 16:17

Yes me @KylieKoKo I've really been feeling the chills to my bones. I'm keeping my fingers crossed it's nothing more than that.

I've got a goulash on the go in the oven. I put too much liquid in it because I was going to cook it on the hob then panicked it wouldn't taste as good. I'm hoping that'll warm me up later.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 06/10/2020 16:18

I've just remembered I've now got what will be a very strong brew of tea on the go

Beautiful3 · 06/10/2020 17:08

Kitchen closed at 615. Fingers crossed I can do the same tomorrow! Good luck Tuesday fasters!

Bottl · 06/10/2020 17:23

@KylieKoKo - yes, I've experienced that previously and usually only when my stomach is very empty.

robertsmithscorpsebride · 06/10/2020 18:50

Yep kylie I am always really cold on a fd, sometimes it hinders sleep! I try and have a bath before bed to warm my old bones Confused

How's everyone getting on? Darker, Bottl, Moonlight and any other Tuesday fasters? Well done beaut

Fd finished here on 482, cup of tea later to watch bake off Grin

MadauntofA · 06/10/2020 18:58

Well done fasters!
I find a cup of bovril helps the cold feeling, as does this- the chilli taste really helps me feel warmer

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses
Bottl · 06/10/2020 19:28

Robert - well done! All fine here and managed to resist the caterpillar cake - phew!

Debating whether to try b2b tomorrow because I'm meeting friends Thursday for coffee and Friday is an inset day so want to take my childminded children out for a treat. I suppose neither of those things should stop me fasting but I imagine it'll be harder to stick to it.
I think I'll decide when I wake up.
Hope everyone else has had a good day.

KylieKoKo · 06/10/2020 19:36

I put a lot of Birdseye chillis into the soup I'm currently eating for tea and I'm boiling now!

KylieKoKo · 06/10/2020 19:36

Top tip for fast day chills. Blow your head off with hot chillis

BigChocFrenzy · 06/10/2020 20:09

Well done, Beaut, Robert, bottl

Bottl Why not try a b2b - you can allow yourself 800 cals for FD2
If not, there is always a Saturday FD, which I often do

In general, if you are taking kids out for a treat on an FD, I'd recommend sticking to black coffee / tea / herbal tea
and not eating anything there, unless they have a salad or soup - no bread - for your main meal

Once you have a nibble of cake or a biscuit, it's too easy to have another 6 ot 7
Or if you "finish off leftovers" just because you bought the food, that can really add up without being filling.

I agree about the beef Bovril, MadAunt
A great standby on winter FDs for only 10 cals - and you can add chilli powder !

OP posts:
Bottl · 06/10/2020 20:10

Ha, ha, great tip Grin

FlyingByTheSeatof · 06/10/2020 20:10

I stuck some chilli in my goulash too @KylieKoKo for that extra kick of warmth.

I've brushed my teeth and the kitchen is closed on either 632 or 727 because I can't remember if I had 1 or 2 apples today.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/10/2020 20:11

Feeling cold on FDs ?

Quite a few people feel colder on FDs, especially if their body is still adapting to fasting:

When fasting, your body doesn't have as much fat readily available and starts to burn your body's fat store for energy.
It may not do so quickly enough to provide as much heat as normal.

You may notice cold hands & feet in particular:
more blood is travelling to your body fat, to help move it to your muscles where it can be burned as a fuel.
This can cause the blood vessels in toes and fingers to dilate, to compensate.

A few mins brisk exercise or movement will improve circulation on FDs and warm you up

Also, after you lose say > a stone, you may feel cold on NFDs too, because you will have lost a fair bit of the fat layer under the skin, which acts as insulation.
Your body may need time to adjust to burning more fat for energy, to compensate.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/10/2020 20:13

Well done on your FD, Flying
Always safer to brush teeth right after supper (and a glass of water) to help avoid late nibbling

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 06/10/2020 21:13

Finished the day on 609 and have made a really healthy omelette for tomorrow's non FD lunch.

Hope everyone else did well today, I also am feeling the cold.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/10/2020 21:22

Well done today, moonlight
and good planning for tomorrow

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MadauntofA · 06/10/2020 22:02

Ooooh - chilli in bovril, will have to try that!!

FlyingByTheSeatof · 07/10/2020 09:35

Woke up with an itchy, runny nose and felt like I was drowning Confused
Lots of will power was required last night not to snack after brushing teeth.

I'm looking a bit dehydrated around my eyes. I've got a good skincare regime but the loss of fat in my face I fear will produce more wrinkles at a rapid rate esp around my eyes. Currently researching thickets plumping creams like Kiehl's avocado eye cream.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 07/10/2020 10:17

*thicker

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2020 10:21

Flying I recommend drinking at least 2 litres water per day, still or fizzy, to keep well-hydrated,
not flavoured fizzy drinks

Also, VLCDs and rapid loss often don't give sufficient time for your body / skin elasticisty to cope,
face and stomach, legs etc
Especially if you stay on them more than a few weeks at a time

==> Another reason to move onto standard 5:2 and away from Fast800 / BSD
The price of forcing rapid loss is an increased risk of wrinkles and also of loose skin elsewhere

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2020 10:25

Rapid loss in the initial stages of 5:2, which can happen with a lot to lose, or retained water, is fine
The moderate calorie deficit lets your body lose at a rate it can cope with and the rapid period doesn't normally last long enough to go beyond what skin etc can cope with.

OP posts:
ilovebagpuss · 07/10/2020 10:37

Hello missed logging my Monday fast but did one as usual. Stressfull busy week here so feeling a bit tired. Also I find it really hard to adjust to the darker mornings and just want to hibernate!
Planning for tomorrow’s fast as I feel I have had rubbish meals just lately. Going to make a batch of veggie chilli to have with a small pitta.
I always feel like a bowl of hot spicy chilli or curry fills me up and seems like a non fast day meal.
Going to weigh this week as haven’t for a while. Good luck to any Wed fasters.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2020 10:45

Well done on Monday's FD. bagpuss

I recommend boosting protein for tomorrow's FD, to help keep you feeling fuller

Yes, I love the glorious long sunny days of spring & summer; find dark & colder autumn and winter more difficult

What helps:
A brisk daily walk outside in daylight, weather permitting
Take vitamin D3 + K2 regularly
If you can, regularly eat oily fish like salmon, macherel, sardines
Boosting veg, especially raw, or lightly cooked veg e.g. stir fry

OP posts:
FlyingByTheSeatof · 07/10/2020 10:45

I normally drink tons of water a day but I dont think I've been drinking as much in the last couple of days for some reason, maybe because of this cold, and I think it's really showing around my eyes. I never drink flavoured fizzy drinks or have them in the house.

I'll start by adding some avocado to my weekly shop. I take cod liver oil capsules regularly now.

I've been researching collagen either in cream or tablet form, no idea if this is even somthing that works.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2020 10:54

A weekly loss of 1lb, which is the longterm average on 5:2, would give more time for your body / skin elasticity to cope

OP posts: