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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2020 16:08

Mosely said under 70g is low carb enough
I don't think going under 50 will do much for you, but it could make it less sustainable
If you want to stick with low carb another 2 weeks, 50-70g carbs would give it a good shot, without making it too miserable

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2020 16:09

Weight loss depends on what is sustainable over months, so you need to be able to enjoy most of the days

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2020 16:15

Ireland's Supreme court has officially declared all Subway bread is confectionary, because of too much sugar, 10% !

abcnews.go.com/International/court-rules-subways-sandwich-bread-bread/story?id=73358543

OP posts:
UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 03/10/2020 16:37

Wow that's interesting about subway! Does anyone remember the old 'Supersize me' documentary where the owner of subway was promoting subway meals as a way to lose weight?

I didn't manage my second fast day yesterday - fasted completely (water and black coffee) for 23 hours but had a different dinner (salmon baked with garlic butter with vegetable rice, probably around 650 calories) but then had wine and walnuts watching a film afterwards - opps. So definitely not a 5:2 fast! Although walnuts are better than crisps at least! 23 hours is still a useful fast I think, not sure why I felt compelled to sabotage in the evening but oh well! Will do a 500 day later in the week - the children are making home made pizza tonight (low carb holds no appeal!).

Well done everyone sticking to your fasts!

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2020 00:30

Don't worry, until FDs can always be moved
You could also try a system of small lunch (e.g. soup) and then small supper instead of just 1 meal ?

Tip:
As soon as you finish your last planned meal, I recommend drinking water and then cleaning your teeth
Psychologically, the clean feel & taste helps stop late night snacks which can sabotage an FD

Most important tip for FDs or NFDs:
No snacking / grazing between meals, even "healthy" snacks

The walnuts would have been Ok to make it a miniFD
but not the wine - it stops some of the fasting benefits like cell regeration etc and also stops fat-burning until the liver has processed all the toxic byproducts

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2020 09:05

I"m fasting today - maintenance miniFD
Anyone else ?
I'm off to the gym now for spin and then some weights

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 04/10/2020 09:16

I'm joining you Bigchoc, Sun/Mon b2b with 500 today and 800 tomorrow will suit my week. Currently sat down with a black coffee planning my meals for this week!

UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 04/10/2020 09:35

Thanks BigChocFrenzy - I think planning a fast day on a Friday was the problem really. I often do a night shift on a Friday, and DH works office hours Monday to Friday so when I'm home on a Friday evening and don't have an early shift on Saturday its become automatic that we open a bottle of wine that evening!

I'm usually fine with one meal on work days, but its then usually a bigger evening meal as its important to me to eat with the family when shifts allow. I don't want to model what looks like a deprivation type diet to my teens and pre teens. Its definitely the wine I should skip - especially as my liver values are slightly elevated! We only drink around 3 evenings per month though...

Good luck with your fasts today
MadauntofA and Bigchoc - I won't be joining you today as we're having corden bleu with home made potato wedges and vegetables for lunch! I'm sticking easily to the daily interval fasting (16:8 or 18:6 or 20:4) I've been doing since July, but 5:2 needs a bit more thought!

Bottl · 04/10/2020 09:57

Morning everyone.
I'll be joining you Sunday fasters - although, I almost sleep-walked my way to a croissant first thing, without thinking.
I've got plumbers here this morning, dealing with a leak so the water is off and toilet out of bounds so am limiting water consumption until they've gone. Hope it won't be too long.
What is everyone planning to eat today? I'm either having chicken and veg or sausage casserole. The casserole is mostly tinned tomatoes and veg so low cal (I just have to limit the amount of sausages I serve myself) but can't decide whether to have it with a small jacket potato or rice - I prefer rice but I find it harder to resist going back for seconds.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2020 12:26

Good luck to us all today, MadAunt, Bottl

Good system for the week, MadAunt
and it helps to roughly plan menus in advance, to avoid impulse eating

Until Most people can lose well with a medium glass of wine with a meal on a couple of evenings per week - it tends to slow down loss if it's more than 1 glass and / or between meals, i.e. a snack - which we don't have ! Wink
However, raised liver values suggests it would be healthier for you to cut out alcohol for now

Bottl Plumbers and no loo or sink is stressful !
I hope they have fixed the leak by now

I'd recommend the jacket potato with skin, as white rice has a high GI - which is why you want to keep going back for more !

My maintenance miniFD allows me 800-1000 cals, so today I'm having 3 small meals,
without counting cals but I judge portion sizes well:

~250 B: black coffee, protein porridge with 1 tbsp chia seeds & 1 tbsp bilberries
Gym: 1h spin + 1h free weights (heavy)
~450 L: lamb meatballs in tom sauce + broccoli rice with peppers
~250 S: chicken soup + small crust rye bread
I drink ~ 2l water

OP posts:
FlyingByTheSeatof · 04/10/2020 12:31

Ok so I'm aiming to low carb at 800 cals today. Only had a cup of tea so far.

I boiled up some green lentils yesterday to use in a salad, I usually used tinned, and my god they stink the house out. I didn't follow the long winded packet instructions but instead Ottolenghi's advice on a recipe which worked perfectly ie boil and simmer for 20 mins. The packet wants them soaked over night, boiled rapidly for 10 mins and simmered for 50 ?!? God knows how mushy they'd have ended up and who's got time for that kind of pointless nonsense.

Bottl · 04/10/2020 12:58

Thanks, BigChoc. Your menu sounds delish.
Yes, Google was suggesting the potato would be the better option when I was looking yesterday.
Re the plumbing, the work/disruption has been going on for nearly 4 weeks (the leak quite a bit longer - I'm trying not to think about that) but I believe it will all be resolved today and then I can finally put everything back in the cupboards and will get to sleep in my bed properly, rather than sharing it with half the contents of one of my fitted cupboards.
Flying - I'd never thought of adding lentils to a salad. I've only ever used them in a sauce to bulk it out a bit and just chuck them in the pressure cooker with all the other ingredients.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2020 13:40

I only ever use tinned lentils and beans, just drain, rinse very well in a seive - to remove the fartiness ! - and then have cold or hot

Cooking them from dry instead - life is too short !

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2020 13:42

or sieve !

OP posts:
Bottl · 04/10/2020 14:10

Oh and I'd never thought of ricing broccoli before - brilliant idea. I much prefer broccoli to cauliflower

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2020 15:13

I get my broccoli rice with mixed peppers in frozen bags (I'm in Germany, so I don't know if the UK has this)
Delic but lazy Blush

OP posts:
Bottl · 04/10/2020 16:23

Ooh, even better!!! I'll see if we can get it in the uk

FlyingByTheSeatof · 04/10/2020 18:08

Kitchen will close later at 771 once I've had my yoghurt and berries. I had chicken and veggies for late lunch and a mini magnum for dinner.

MadauntofA · 04/10/2020 20:55

I found this in Iceland Bottl- broccoli, leek, courgette and spinach "rice" for 40cal - great for a lazy day! How did you get on with your FD?
I'm done here at 490.
Well done Flying

Bottl · 04/10/2020 21:26

@MadauntofA - thanks, that sounds fab! I'll go and look for some.
I've got on ok today, thanks. Just starting to feel a bit hungry again now though so will be off to bed shortly.
@FlyingByTheSeatof - I had to stop buying magnums - no self control

MadauntofA · 04/10/2020 21:33

Sorry - meant to add the photo! Well done Bottl

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses
Bottl · 04/10/2020 22:57

Thank you Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 05/10/2020 02:04

Well done, Bottl, Flying

Yes, those lethal Magums are to be avoided on FDs and taken in moderation on NFDs Grin

Looks a brilliant veggy rice pack, MadAunt

OP posts:
KylieKoKo · 05/10/2020 08:01

Well done yesterday's fasters and good luck to those who are fasting today. I only fasted one day last week due to being ravenous with pmt and visiting family but I'm planning fast days for tomorrow and Thursday.

MadauntofA · 05/10/2020 08:51

I'm doing my 2nd FD - having 800cal as managed under 500 yesterday. Lovely chicken and veg soup for lunch with a small apple, then poached egg and stir fried veg tonight. Who's joining me today?
Good luck for tomorrow Kylie!