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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme · 02/10/2020 09:01

Thanks for the welcome and advice BigChocFrenzy BrewGrin

How are you all counting your calories?
You're all very precise! I won't use my Fitness pal because of data protection - you have to consent to releasing all your data internationally and specifically to the USA! erm - no! Are there any calorie counter aps anyone can recommend which don't ask for such sweeping permissions?

I only ate a jacket pototo with tuna/ sweetcorn/ mayonnaise yesterday (plus water, black coffee, giner tea and one cup of tea with milk) and am taking that as roughly 500 calories, having googled, but its bit if a guesstimate...

Doing btb as thats how 5:2 fits into my week this week (I'm on early shifts which makes fasting til late afternoon easy although drinking enough water hard) - baptism of fire Grin Yesterday was easy (have done 20:4 days fairly often so not that different) but lets see if today is different... I have a bbc good foid spicy meatball tagine planned for dinner which is allegedly 484 calories www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/spicy-meatball-tagine-bulghar-chickpeas but might be tempted by wine after dinner I suspect!

ilovebagpuss · 02/10/2020 11:21

@BigChocFrenzy yes it’s hard but definitely need to love thyself and accept you are moving to a better place mirror wise but the person will be able he same whatever the size.
I think I’ve finally realised it’s not a diet as such it’s the new normal and you can have good and bad weeks but keep plodding downwards with your weight.
Good luck Friday fasters and welcome new and returning fasters.
I have lurked on and off for ages it’s such a helpful supportive chat.

Bottl · 02/10/2020 11:55

Thanks for the welcome.
I'm trying to keep busy this morning to avoid the kitchen. Not too difficult as my to-do list is long Grin
I really need to increase the amount of water I drink. I like water and drink lots with my evening meal but avoid drinking lots at through the day because I can't always get to a loo easily and whilst I know it only takes a few days for the body to readjust to increased liquid, I still put off sorting it out.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/10/2020 12:45

Don't worry about being exact on FDs, Until
Google is fine, or just check calories for individual items on mfp but don't sign up; you should find it easy enough to calculate within the 400-600 range

Once you've been on this WOE a while, most people develop a good feel for the amoiunt & type of food that fits on an FD, without counting

Important on FDs
No alcohol whatsoever
No junky sugary / carby treats e.g. no biscuits, cake, crisps

You can have those - in moderation - on NFDs as part of a meal, not as a snack on its own

You're right, Bagpuss for longterm weight management, think of this as a longterm WOE, not jumping on & off a diet

I recommend using the NFDs as retraining days, to learn healthier habits and eating what your body needs - which will reduce over the months, if you have a lot to lose

When you get to goal, maintenance is somewhere between your WOE in the weight loss phase and your old normal,
but minus bad habits like snacking, or excess junk / booze

That's tough about water and loo access, Bottl
Although it's best to keep drinking through the day, if you have plenty early in the morning an then in the evening - and aren't up all night ! - you should have sufficient for the day

Good luck today, Until, Bottl and any other Friday fasters

I'm having a maintenance miniFD:
B: double black coffee
gym: flexibility class, then 45 minutes lifting weights
T: mackerel & boiled egg with large mixed salad, 1 tbsp vinaigrette dressing, rye bread crust

I drink about 2l water during the day, mostly still.
I often have fizzy water with cucumber & mint, or a dash of lemon juice, no sweeetener or anything.

OP posts:
Bottl · 02/10/2020 18:00

Thanks for the suggestion, BigChoc, re water - I just need to get on with it.

FD going well so far. My first one back on the wagon often does. The real test is getting a second one done and then carrying on!

How are the other Friday fasters getting on?

BigChocFrenzy · 02/10/2020 18:16

I'm just finishing my FD meal - I added a small helping of protein porridge for pud

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/10/2020 18:19

Yes, FD2 is usually tougher, as you burn off a bit of fat on FD1 and release some water,
and then on FD2 your body has to burn some more fat, before it has yet adapted to fasting

OP posts:
Bottl · 02/10/2020 18:32

I struggle to keep focussed. The last few years have been bumpy, to say the least but finally feel like I've turned a corner so hoping this time I can keep myself motivated to stick to this wol.

Hope you enjoyed your meal. I'm just about to go and make mine.

Beautiful3 · 02/10/2020 18:54

Kitchen closed at 600. That's my third btb fast days completed. Well done friday fasters.

Beautiful3 · 02/10/2020 18:56

Hows your fast going @FlyingByTheSeatof?

FlyingByTheSeatof · 02/10/2020 19:35

Hey @Beautiful3 not bad at all. Kitchen closed at 713.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/10/2020 20:19

Well done on your FD, Beaut, flying

How have you done today, Bottl ?
It sounds like you've had a tough few years, but now you are back in the fasting swing

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 02/10/2020 21:09

Well done @FlyingByTheSeatof that's great. Keep going @Bottl, you can do this!

Bottl · 02/10/2020 21:14

Not too bad, thanks, BigChoc. Managed to last until 7pm on just coffee and water and had poached eggs and toast for dinner - not the best dinner choice but was quick, easy and filling - and I left the butter off the toast so that's a definite move in the right direction Grin.
Yes, a difficult time but I've learnt a lot and am using that to move forward.
Toying with the idea of fasting on Sunday next...anyone else weekend fasting?

Bottl · 02/10/2020 21:31

@Beautiful3 Thank you Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 02/10/2020 23:12

Well done on your 1st FD back, Bottl
Eggs were a good choice, so supper was fine

I usually have a weekend miniFD, so I might join you

OP posts:
FlyingByTheSeatof · 03/10/2020 10:42

Hmm so I just weighed myself and have lost half a kilo which is a bit disappointing but always better than having put any on so that's something. No more Pizza for me and must move more.

Bottl · 03/10/2020 11:43

Half off is definitely better than half on! And slow and steady is an effective way to keep the weight off long term.

Mmm, pizza - can you adapt your pizza and have less often? Thin crust? Or have you tried cauliflower rice pizza base? I made one once and once only - tasted ok but not worth the effort Grin

FlyingByTheSeatof · 03/10/2020 12:57

I've had pizza once in 3 months @Bottl

Bottl · 03/10/2020 13:18

Ah, ok so as it's not a regular occurrence, once in a while won't do any long term damage.

What's on the menu for everyone today? I need a bit of inspiration for my weekly meal plan. I've got a bit stuck in a rut and know that meal planning is key for me to stay focussed.

moonlight1705 · 03/10/2020 13:21

Whoops, forgot to check back in after my FD. I only managed one due to work.

We are swapping to a new database and since I'm the database manager then I am run off my feet.

We have had some nice healthy meals, got beef stew tonight and had chilli last night. I ended up making gingerbread biscuits with DD today as it is raining. Luckily my DSis is coming over later so will feed them all to her and BIL.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2020 13:33

Well done on your SV, Flying
That's about 1lb, which is the average for 5:2

Losing a lot of weight does take patience and most people will have slowdowns at a few stages

If you are still on Fast800/BSD, loss often slows down after the first few weeks,
particularly if you can't stick to the low carb every day

  • low carb diets don't work as well unless you are strict about types of food, not just calories.

Even on 1 day, large amounts of carbs like a pizza / pasta / rice etc will keep you out of keto for half the week,
which reduces the effectiveness of the whole diet.

If you find it tough, it's fine to add some higher calories days each week, up to TDEE, but they have to be low carb

If you want to eat carbs, I suggest changing to standard 5:2 or 4:3 with 500 FDs and "normal" NFDs within TDEE
This would give much more freedom, for about you current loss

On ordinary 5:2, you can have pizza, fish & chips etc on NFDs, just reasonably sensible portions

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2020 13:36

Bottl FD Recipes from the OP - you can increase portions, add pasta etc for NFDs

BBC Good Food 200-400 cal mealss*
BBC Good Food 500 cal mealss* ,
5:2 meal plans & recipess*

Mosely LowCarbb , low carb Diet Docc

Vegetariann*

OP posts:
Bottl · 03/10/2020 14:22

Thanks for the links...I'll have a look

FlyingByTheSeatof · 03/10/2020 15:09

Yes I think you're right @BigChocFrenzy I have to stick 100 % to low carb daily for now - under 50 but aim for 30 to shift this weight quicker. At least for a couple of weeks anyway to see and prove the difference to my myself

Today I'm eating small steak with veggies.

And yoghurt and berries later