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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
FlyingByTheSeatof · 16/09/2020 16:07

@KylieKoKo that looks delicious, substantial and gorgeously colourful.

Beautiful3 · 16/09/2020 19:07

Kitchen closed at 606. Well done Wednesday fasters!

Beautiful3 · 16/09/2020 19:11

Well done @lightlypoached, looks like you're going to smash your target in no time! Your meal plan looks fab.

KylieKoKo · 16/09/2020 19:41

Well done fasters!

I'm all done now, save for my boiled egg and cup a soup when the inevitable evening munchies start up. Once I've had them I'll be at just under 500 calories.
I'm feeling quite full at the moment due to a steamed veg and raw spinach.

I'm going out for dinner on Monday night next week so I'm shifting my fast days to Tuesday and Thursday. I love the flexibility of 5 2.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 16/09/2020 20:01

Kitchen closed at 741. Well done everyone on their FD today.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2020 20:09

Well done on your FDs, Beaut, Kylie, Flying

Kylie Flexibility to move FDs is a big plus in making this WOE sustainable

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 16/09/2020 20:25

I'm done at 550. We'll done fellow fasters!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2020 20:42

Well done on your FD, MadAunt

OP posts:
lightlypoached · 16/09/2020 20:56

Ooh everyone has done well today. I varied from the planned menu but did 870 cals in all

A hard sweaty hour-long yoga class as well so burned off a bit.

A picture of spicy homemade beans Grin

Same again to tomorrow?

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses
BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2020 21:56

Sounds a good day, Poached

Good luck for tomorrow and to the other Thursday fasters

OP posts:
lightlypoached · 17/09/2020 08:43

Morning. In need of a motivational speech and/or a kick up the bum.

This time last week I was 60.5. Today, after a week of 800 and a weekend of 1000 I'm now at 61.2.

Waaaah!

DH in that time has lost another 2kg. I'm post menopause so it's not period weight. What gives ?

Confused
BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2020 10:11

Don't worry, Poached That's only 0.7 kg
A graph of most peoples' weight loss journey is more like a sawtooth curve, not a straight line downwards
One week is nothing on a journey that takes months

Weight for most people - including those not dieting - naturally fluctuates from day to day and during a day, due to amount of undigested food, retained / released water etc

This is why I always say it's fine to weigh daily or weekly, but look at the trend over 2-3 weeks, because you can always have a temporary blip

Possible causes in your case:

  • DId you increase carbs within those 2 days ?
    Your body stores 3-4g water for every 1g carbs, so an extra 200-300g carbs over the weekend could add 0.7kg water weight
    i.e. you have added some water not fat - but don't restrict water, or your body will hold on to it more.
    This is an inevitable issue with low carb: you have to allow for adding a little water weight once you stop

  • Are you weighing consistently, because small differences can easily add up to > 1 kg

How to weigh:
. First thing in the morning before drinking or eating anything, but after loo
. Weigh yourself naked
. Use the same scales in the same place on a hard, level surface - not carpet
. Switch on the scales and count slowly to 3, so they have time to calibrate, then step on - don't jump
. Keep still and don't lean to the side or back / front
. Replace batteries regularly

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2020 10:15

Men almost always lose more quickly than women - on any diet.
Even if they are the same age, height, weight and activity level, which is very rare
Biology sucks

Try entering your details in Mosely's TDEE Calc, then his
Then calculate the average daily calorie deficit you both have, e.g. (TDEE - 800) in your case

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2020 10:26

As posted upthread, when transitioning from the low carb Fast800, I always recommend a first step of adding low carb NFDs within TDEE
not say adding 150- 200 calories carbs to an 800 cal FD

Mosely said (on an MN Webchat iirc) that for Fast800 / BSD to work efficiently, aim to keep within 70g carbs daily
So, adding more carbs than this is best done later, once you have added enough NFDs to be on 5:2 or 4:3

Reason:
Adding carbs probably takes you out of ketotis
==> it reduces fat-burning for the first 48 hours of your 800 FDs when you resume
With a more carby weekend, you are probably only in ketosis for 3 days

OP posts:
KylieKoKo · 17/09/2020 11:46

I just did my second weigh in and I am 3.3 pounds down which is amazing to me for only counting calories on 2 days. I am sure it will slow down now as the first two weeks are always the quickest but I am happy to lose slowly as a long as I am losing.

moonlight1705 · 17/09/2020 15:52

Well done Kylie that is such a good result though.

I am desperately trying not to eat. I have had my lovely soup for lunch and had to come into the office. There are some pear drops sitting on the side all nicely wrapped up (so I can't even tell myself poo crumbs) and I am not looking at them!!! Honest!!! Blush not cracked yet.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2020 16:24

Congratulations on your SV, Kylie
Good start

Stay strong, moonlight
Chant - silently, so your mates don't all back away ! - the FD mantra:

"I can have some tomorrow" Wink

OP posts:
FlyingByTheSeatof · 17/09/2020 17:14

Be strong @moonlight1705 I say this as someone who gave in to temptation late last night and has already eaten her dinner today and ate one of the DC's left over sausages.

Mind you I'm only have 2 meals a day which is a bit daft so I'll have yogurt and berries later as a meal as I've got enough cals left.

Well done @KylieKoKo.

@lightlypoached you'll be fine in no time. I only wish I was your weight, I have a long way to go.

ilovebagpuss · 17/09/2020 17:24

Second fast day of the week. It’s going ok but it does make me grumpy especially when feeding the family and we sit together I feel a bit miserable with my small portion.
Never mind I can have it tomorrow Grin
Hope everyone else fasting today is doing ok.
Well done @KylieKoKo that’s a fantastic SV.

Beautiful3 · 17/09/2020 17:42

Today didn't go so well. Kitchen closed at 725. That's my 3 fasting days done for this week. Well done Thursday fasters!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2020 19:01

It's fine to let some FDs stretch to 800, Beaut
or in your case, to do them all 800, as you are on 4:3

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 17/09/2020 20:17

Thanks BigChoc.

moonlight1705 · 18/09/2020 07:58

Forgot to update last night but ended on 559 - my best FD in ages. You'll be glad to hear I resisted the nice sweets completely Smile

Coffeeandcookies · 18/09/2020 08:53

FD today, big glass of water for breakfast, have planned a couple of boiled eggs and a tomato for lunch, then a small portion of slow-cooker beef stroganoff for dinner. If I stick to that I'll be at 517.

Good luck to other Friday fasters!!

FlyingByTheSeatof · 18/09/2020 08:54

I closed the kitchen last night at 756. I had to draw heavily on will power.

Today will be 800 but tomorrow will be a NFD where I'll aim for 1200 as my limit if I can.