5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Kitchen closed I have to eat early with the children or I cave in. Thin bagel with slice of deli pork and cucumber for lunch and a bowl of homemade chilli full of veg on its own for dinner. One very small satsuma.
Now to fill the sunny evening with jobs so I forget I’m peckish.
@EssentialHummus I love omelette thanks for reminding me do you have 2 eggs?

ilove I do one egg and some semi-skimmed milk, then toms, mushrooms and some chicken or (today) a bit of feta crumbled in. It probably would taste a bit too watery for some but done on a high heat I like it.

And well done

Evening all! Kitchen closed at 515. I've lost just over 5kg, and suddenly people are noticing - I've had 4 separate comments today including from my DD who is usually oblivious, but noticed my face was thinner!! None of them knew I was actively trying to lose weight, so I was impressed. Slow weight loss, but i didn't expect it to be super speedy, and pleased it is going in the right direction. BMI now below 27.
Well done Ilove and Hummous, how have you got on Kylie and Flying?

Hey all. I've just finished dinner and kitchen is closed on 727 cals and I feel nice and full.

B - tea and coffee with dash of milk
L - Greek yoghurt with berries and a small green lentil salad
D - Cauliflower rice with chicken, mushrooms, half a courgette, garlic and various other condiments thrown in and a dollop of greek yogurt with some prawn crackers. Totally made it up as I went along and it was truly delicious and filling. Followed by an apple for pudding.

I've just finished my evening meal of a Young's cod fillet (only 67 cals but tiny) on a huge mound of steamed veg some raw baby spinach. I'm on about 430 cals but if I need it will have diet tomato cup a soup and a miso soup before bed.

I'm feeling strangely not hungry despite doing a hiit class earlier.

My next fast will be wednesday

My carbs were high though at 86 because of the lentils, apple and prawn crackers but having spent weeks under 50 carbs I think I'll allow myself more so long as I stay under 800 cals most of the time which is a good compromise I think helping me to stay on low cal but being more flexible with what I eat.

@FlyingByTheSeatof I think that having too many rules just makes things harder. Why restrict carbs unless you need to?

If not restricting them is working for you there's no need to worry about it?

Well done, Bagpuss, MadAunt, Flying, Kylie

Kylie So long as you are not eating any junk and feel you have things under control, then you can allow yourself that kind of leeway with healthy carbs, including on your Fast800 FDs

That's an encouraging compliments NSV, MadAunt

Oops sorry, that comment about carbs should have been to flying

Yes you're right @KylieKoKo I'll just not have bread and pasta at all and limit rice and potatoes to a very tiny amount. But allow small increase of my pulse, fruit and veg carbs.

I've done the Fast 800 as a kick start. I've got more to lose but yes why make things harder.

Although today went well I'm a bit nervous if fasting in pmt week as I tend to be ravenous then! I guess I can just not fast if I'm feeling particularly hungry.

How do you find fasting just before your period?

@EssentialHummus thanks I will try that sounds delicious and mushrooms are so low cal. Well done on all the successful fasts today and on your loss so far @MadauntofA nice when people notice.

Thats good to hear BigChoc re healthy carbs I've never been to sure on that tbh so it's good to have confirmation that it's ok.

And what's also great @MadauntofA that as well as the weight loss being noticed is that no-ones noticed the tweaks you've made to your WOE which means you've slotted it in nicely to your daily life making it easier to keep up.

Good progress @MadauntofA

I was off the veryfast800 fri-sun and put on a kilo. even though I didn't go over 1000 on any day.

Back on it today. Closed the kitchen at 740 and did 30m of yoga and a 1hr dance class to burn it up a bit.

B: porridge with banana and peanut butter
L: salad with mozzarella and basil.
D: baked beans on a whole meal
Pitta.

Am determined now to get to 59 so I stand a better chance of keeping under 60.

Good luck fur the rest of the week everyone!

Flying I recommend the transition from Fast800 to adding NFDs (within TDEE) that I posted upthread

Poached When coming off low carb, you can add a lot of water weight
I'd suggest adding a couple of low carb NFDs, i.e. keeping carbs down, but allowing calories up to nearly TDEE on those 2 days
Also, don't have consecutive NFDs at this stage; split them up over the week.

Thanks choc. Will try that

I’ve been off of the thread for all of lockdown and have put on a stone , Kids back at school, swimming pool open and I start a new job next week and have decided working days should be fasting days, 3 a week. Should I go for 800 or 500 bigchoc?
Snacking and wine have been my downfall so hopefully will knock those on the head and transition smoothly back into the wagon.
Nice to see some familiar names and welcome to lots of new people. Good luck for FDs!

Morning all and welcome back what

I'm doing a proper FD today and not making it a b2b this time. I weighed the other day and had put on. According to my graph I have been bouncing around the same 2 kg for the last 4 months without getting anywhere. I'm making a concerted effort to write down everything and see what's happening on non FDs as obviously am eating back the deficit.

Welcome back, What

Aha, those are the 2 habits I recommend everyone make permanent, including pauses and holidays etc

• No snacking and NHS alcohol limits - precisely because they are 2 of the quickest ways to gain weight

If anyone is underweight & struggling to gain, then healthy snacking is the first thing I'd recommend (but not exveeding the alcohol limits !)

Don't worry, stay focused and you can haul this back again, then charge on your way to goal

I recommend whichever 500 FDs if you could sustainably nail them before lockdown, but if not then the 800
Also, have a couple of boiled eggs or other protein in the frig, in case a particular 500 FD gets too tough, so you can segue into an 800 one.

Good luck, What, Moonlight

That's a sensible step, Moonlight writing down everything on NFDs helps highlight whether the issue is portion size, or calorie bombs (usually cake, biscuits etc), alcohol

For everyone:
For a good rate of loss, I recommend keeping 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs even at weekends and on holiday:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily (max 3 units) & weekly (max 14)
• NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
• AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
• On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, pies, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own as a snack
• Lots of water & veg each day
• Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
• Plenty of sleep

I woke up feeling like I had a hangover after my third fast! However, water, coffee and breakfast have sorted this out and I now actually feel full of energy, have got loads of work done this morning and I am looking forward to lunchtime HIIT in way that I don't normally look forward to excercise

Also, i only ate half a bagel with breakfast when I would normally have a whole one because I simply didn't fancy it which is very unlike me.

I woke up with heartburn which I never suffer from. It's passed now thankfully. I weighed myself today and I still have approx 25kg I want to lose. It'll be slower now I'm introducing NFD days which will be the days I go over 800. I'm still aiming for low carb 800 cals a day but with the wiggle room of 2 days of NFD a week if necessary. It'll be necessary this weekend as I'm meeting friends and there will be alcohol involved. They are all so much slimmer than me, the same size I used to be except I'm the only one who's put on lots of weight. Actually no that's a lie one other fluctuates like me.