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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Coffeeandcookies · 13/09/2020 14:43

Thanks BigChoc and lightlypoached for the suggestions. I'm pretty good with veg - love vegetables and happily fill at least half my plate with them. I don't have second helpings either, so it's more about managing my portions when serving.

I think eating slowly is important so I know when I'm full.

It has always surprised me when I start measuring and weighing my food how little I actually NEED to eat. I remember being shocked at the difference between what I would have served up normally and the recommended portion size. It was only when I started measuring portions I realised how much I was overeating.

I think it's years of poor portion size that has affected my ability to judge by eye - and living with people with huge appetites who can easily eat twice what I do and look for more!!

KylieKoKo · 13/09/2020 16:04

Just stocked up on food for my third fast day tomorrow.

Grapefruit, miso soup (my fasting saviour), cup a soup, cod, an egg, salad and veg.

I'm kind of dreading it but I've eaten a lot of pizza this weekend so I need it.

FlyingByTheSeatof · 13/09/2020 16:23

Hi everyone >>waves

KylieKoKo · 13/09/2020 16:39

@BigChocFrenzy it looks lovely where you are

BigChocFrenzy · 13/09/2020 18:45

Congratulations on your SV, Flying Fab loss

Sounds like you are ready to move out of Fast800 onto a less strict program that allows carbs

  • the rapid results only really come if you low carb daily; otherwise you can spend half the week out of ketosis and also feeling quite hungry.

Looking at Mosely's recommendations when transitioning out of the Fast800/BSD, he recommends doing so by moving to fewer FDs, but adding 16:8 (an 8-hour eating window) on the NFDs

So, I suggest transition week 1:
2 non-consecutive healthy NFDs - within TDEE with small carb portions, no junk, no booze - with 16:8
keeping 5 low carb 800 FDs

If that goes well, you can move to week 2
3 non-consecutive NFDs - 16:8 with healthy carbs and optionally 1 glass wine

  • 4 x 800 FD

Move gradually to 5:2 or 4:3 when ready, to lose the rest of the weight
If you need to reduce cravings, you can choose to return to a previous step anytime

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/09/2020 18:47

Coffee A taller, muscular male OH of similar age may indeed have double your TDEE
A boy in his late teens may have triple !
You need to get used to portions that are appropriate for your body and TDEE, noone else's - that's a tough change to make mentally, but it is key

OP posts:
Coffeeandcookies · 13/09/2020 18:59

That is exactly the battle I know lies ahead for me, getting used to and sticking with the appropriate portions for my body and activity levels as they are currently rather than continuing to eat the quantities I could get away with when I was younger, fitter and much more active. And not to feel hard done by when I look at my plate! Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 13/09/2020 19:42

Calculating your TDEE at age 20, at your current age, then at age 65 illustrates the challenge

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/09/2020 19:47

Many people can get away with massive eating including unlimited junk in their teens / early 20s - parents are encouraged to keep filling up teens with cheap carbs

However, those amounts can become habits that are hard to break.

Once people have been overweight for several years, their "normal" eating is often more than their body can burn;
Hence use the NFDs to retrain your "normal" eating
Nailing the NFDs and forming new habits is as important as nailing the FDs.

OP posts:
FlyingByTheSeatof · 13/09/2020 20:33

Thanks BigChoc My carbs for the last few weeks were all under 50 and today hit 70 and slightly more yesterday. 16.8 sounds doable. I've pretty much kind of been doing that already as I've never been a breakfast person.
Week 1 sounds like a good plan that I can definitely stick to maybe for more than a week and then move to week 2. The carbs I'll be adding will be small portions of rice about half a cup, potato no more than one and more apples. I won't be going near pasta or bread as they are not my friends. Cakes, crisps and biscuits I can live without as with most snack things. Alcohol hmm, I'm doing without and it's easier for me to abstain completely rather than enjoy just the one glass which invariably turn to many more. But there will be times I'll end up having a glass so be nice not to feel bad about that.

Today I had for brunch 80 grams yogurt with 60 gm berries.

Then for a very late lunch roast chicken cooked on big chunks of quartered large potatoes, onions and garlic. No oil at all but 400ml of water added. First time I've cooked it like this which I did after seeing this on an M&S post on instagram. The liquid was thick and tasty enough to use as gravy and everything tasted more delicious than expected with the addition of just water. If I'd had carrots I'd have added those or swede or cauliflower. Did have peas and some sweetcorn too followed by baked Victoria plums with cinnamon, ginger and a bit of sugar.
Cals so far 735 according to MFP.

Coffeeandcookies · 13/09/2020 21:32

FDs planned for this week, Tuesday and Friday for me. Meals planned and already logged in MFP.

Good luck to those of you fasting tomorrow!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/09/2020 22:40

That's well organised, Coffee

Flying Later, you can add cakes & crisps - I recommend much later and in moderation - but only as part of a meal, never as a snack between meals.

White rice spikes insulin in a lot of people who are sensitive to carbs, so I recommend brown rice, quinoa, buckwheat groats

For potato, boiled or baked is fine, but avoid mash or deep fried, due to higher insulin impact

Useful tip to reduce insulin impact of carbs - boost resistant starch:

Cook rice / potato / pasta / beans and let it cool overnight in the frig
Then either eat it cold or reheated

Instead of porridge, have overnight oats, i.e. uncooked
because oats lose resistant starch when heated

OP posts:
FlyingByTheSeatof · 13/09/2020 23:30

Thanks for the excellent tips BigChoc.
I do like cauliflower rice so I'll be using that as a substitute most of the time.
I'm finding already that because I've loosened the reins a bit my brain wants to go wild with food choices so tomorrow will be a strict FD of 800 putting everything into MFP as I go along.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/09/2020 23:57

I've discovered broccoli rice, which I find much more satisfying than cauli rice
So something else to use as a change

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 14/09/2020 06:08

Morning Monday fasters, back on Bigchoc's wagon - who's with me?
Bigchoc, that is interesting about boosting resistant starch - I knew about reheating pasta, but didn't know it applied to potatoes etc, and also didn't know about the soaked vs cooked oats, so thank you. Also how do you cook your broccoli rice - chop and steam?

ilovebagpuss · 14/09/2020 07:32

Morning @MadauntofA Monday fast day for me too. I definitely need it had a lovely afternoon tea at a beautiful county house yesterday lots of Mimi cakes!
However I did take on board about mini fast and ate nothing at all except the afternoon tea and also only at two meals on Saturday.
Don’t want the weekend to derail my hard work.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2020 08:45

Good luck on your FDs, MadAunt, Bagpuss

MadAunt I buy my broccoli rice in big frozen bags Grin
Takes about 3 minutes to cook - I chuck some in a stir fry, or nuke it in the MW

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 14/09/2020 09:16

Ahh! I am a great fan of frozen diced onion, garlic and the veg bags - make life so much easier, and no waste. I'll have to look out for broccoli!

FlyingByTheSeatof · 14/09/2020 09:41

So FD today and I'm planning my meals and I'm under 800 cals which is good and under carbs 50. So I have wiggle room for extra items.

Tea and coffee with splash of milk.

Lunch will be a 2 egg omelette and yoghurt and berries.

Dinner will be chicken, mushrooms, onion, courgette with garlic and a tablespoon of yoghurt stirred in. Likely followed by an apple which is high in carbs I know.

All this could change of course but I need to focus today. I might have miso in between if need be.

KylieKoKo · 14/09/2020 09:45

I'm fasting too and have a hiit class later. I've had nothing but water so far and brewing a black coffee

KylieKoKo · 14/09/2020 10:00

I just did my first weigh in and I am one pound down from this time last week, despite eating pizza and drinking wine at the weekend which amazes me!

The weekend was full of pizza and wine yet only caused 0.6 lbs of "damage" compared to the morning after my last fast.

This is very motivating and will hopefully get me through today!

KylieKoKo · 14/09/2020 10:53

@BigChocFrenzy I can definitely relate to TDEE changing. As a teenager I was "naturally skinny" so therefore didn't learn to moderate my eating. Some of my old friends who were chubby back then are slimmer than me now just because they got used to dieting in their early 20s.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2020 13:00

Good luck today too, Kylie, flying

Well done on your SV, Kylie
It's up to the individual to choose more gradual loss vs quicker loss - loss normslly slows down after the first couple of weeks, on any diet
btw, one indulgent meal weekly should make no difference, if you want a compromise

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 14/09/2020 13:04

Checking in for a FD here after an indulgent week - it was DD’s birthday so there were snacks and edible gifts everywhere. I had an omelette with tomato and mushrooms for breakfast, likely same again for lunch and then just water/coffee here and there today.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2020 13:53

Good luck today, Hummus
and belated Happy Birthday to MiniHummus

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