5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Kylie Weight loss plotted for 5:2 is typcially a "sawtooth" curve form, with weight going down after FDs, then rising gradually again after NFDs, but with the overall trend downwards

Hang on fasters, you have nearly finished, not long to go

Hi everyone, I've been awol from these threads but am still here. I am losing very slowly - I've lost 6kg (13lb) in six months. It's a glacial pace but I'm just happy it's going in a downward direction!

I listened to the Obesity Code podcast - I really recommend this for anyone who has been struggling. It explains the science behind why it's been so hard for me to lose, and has some valuable knowledge that echoes the great info on these threads.

Great to read all the positive posts and reports of losses! Have a good weekend everyone - with an especial hat tip to @BigChocFrenzy for keeping these threads going.

Hi again Spatch, well done on your SV, a slow steady loss should be easier to maintain than a super speedy one! Thanks for the recommendation re the podcast - is that based on Jason Fung's book? I heard one a while back on the Feel Better, Live more one about intermittent fasting and that was very interesting.
I finished my mini last night at 650. Porridge cooking as we speak!

Morning 3lb down that’s over 2 weeks though as I gave myself an easy start. Just got to stick it now and fine tweak. Gosh I slept badly though and needed a wee every few hours. I remember from my previous time that this gets better as your body gets used to the fast days.
hello @spatchcock you have lost nearly a stone in 6 months well done! So easy to put on a stone so hard to take off!
Does anyone fast on a Friday? If so I’m giving you a hunger games style salute! Mentally that’s awesome. Somehow I cannot separate Friday from treats (hence being overweight!)

Congratulations on your SVs, Spatchcock, bagpuss

Good to hear you are still on the WOE, Spatchcock
Everyone loses at the rate their body and life allows - another 5:2 mantra coming up:

"It's a WOL, not a race"

Well done on your miniFD yesterday , MadAunt

I often have a Saturday maintenance miniFD, Bagpuss as I found nearly 7 years ago in the weight loss phase that it cuts down on my otherwise over-indulgent weekends

I'm fasting today too, due to a busy social week, so may do a b2b miniFD
I've done an hour of weights at the gym and I'm off now for a sunny Rhine walk, nearly 30C

Any other Friday fasters ?

@BigChocFrenzy good idea about the mini fast to negate the damage of a weekend! So jealous of your temp there it’s not too bad in the UK but 30 sounds gorgeous. Enjoy your walk thanks for all the support.

Day 2 of miniFD b2b
Anyone else fasting today ?

2 classes at the gym this afternoon: HIIT strength followed by spin
This weekend will get up to 31C, so I'm enjoying shorts & Tee in the sun before Autumn sets in and I have to dig out trousers & long sleeves again

On my Rhine walk, I heard a great clattering from behind me and realised this was hooves

• from 2 horses leaving the little Rhine ferry (comes from an island with vineyards)

pulling a carved wooden wagon into our village

How lovely BigChoc!

I have a question for all of you who are further along on your journey than I am:

How do you motivate yourself to maintain your weight loss long-term?

I've always been able to lose weight reasonably successfully, but my challenge is keeping it off. I have to be very disciplined to lose weight and find that counting calories works well because there's no ambiguity about it, once you've used your calorie allowance then stop.

However, I eventually get bored counting points/calories etc. I find that I start to allow little extras creeping in and lose my motivation and discipline. How do you avoid this?

I'm interested in the same thing Coffee. I tend to have similar things for FDs rather than count calories all the time, but I imagine it can get boring quite quickly - do you do the same, do you estimate after a long time if cooking similar things, or go you carry on counting?!

Great wagon by the way Bigchoc. Was it a tourist ride, or is that their chosen mode of transport? I'd be quite happy trundling along on that in 30 degrees!!

@MadauntofA

Great wagon by the way Bigchoc. Was it a tourist ride, or is that their chosen mode of transport? I'd be quite happy trundling along on that in 30 degrees!!

... Just their chosen ride, off to market or something

Coffee, MadAunt The maintenance guidelines I posted upthread don't include counting anything

Basically keeping to some habits formed during the weight loss phase:
never snack / graze between meals, keep within NHS alcohol guidelines, drink more water, get enough sleep, regular exercise / walk

plus some form of regular fasting, such as 5:2 with more generous NFDs, or 6:1, or daily 16:8 / 14:10,
with daily weighing so that if you put on 5 lb / 1" waist, then immediately return to full 5:2 before it accumulates

For FDs, most maintainers have developed a good idea of what 800 calories looks like - most maintain on 800 FDs or miniFDs -
so have a healthy small and medium meal

As a rough guide on maintenance "FDs", have less than, or up to, half of what you'd normally eat, no booze or junk

My usual maintenance miniFD is lunch as main meal and soup as supper,
occasionally the other way round with a 5-6pm supper
Breakfast always black coffee or espresso

The main meal is either
a protein & salad, with balsamic vinegar or a tbsp vinaigrette
or a protein & stirfry

The soup is chicken / fish / butternut squash and I usually add a tbsp dehydrated veg and boiled egg tolk or a few nuts,
but no bread

Thanks for the kind words everyone. Sometimes I get frustrated with the slow progress (especially as @ilovebagpuss points out it is so easy to put on that 6kg compared to the slog of losing it!) but I am going the right way.

@MadauntofA yes that’s the one - Jason Fung. The info on hormones was a bit of an eye opener for me. There is some stuff I let wash over me - like the longer fasting periods. I think if I fasted for three days I would obsess over food so much I’d end up bingeing! But the science is interesting - and reassuring to know that there is a solid reason it is so hard to lose weight (as opposed to me being lazy or greedy etf).

Hope everyone is having a nice weekend.

I know what you're saying BigChoc, but I still find it hard to regulate my portions unless I am strict about weighing/counting them. My lifestyle is pretty healthy as I do stick to the guidance about drinking plenty of water, getting exercise and adequate sleep and I don't drink alcohol, so for me maintenance is all about the food.

One thing I've found really helps is finding a way of measuring food without the hassle of weighing - for example, I take porridge for breakfast. Instead of faffing about with the scales I've a small scoop that I leave in the porridge box that I know will give me exactly 25g of porridge oats, so it makes it really easy to get the correct portion size without any extra hassle.

However when it comes to plating up meals it's more difficult to regulate portions unless I weigh them every time.

I do use a small plate which helps, but I was wondering if anyone has any other tricks that help them to control their portions?

@Coffeeandcookies I find that by having a 'rule' that at least half my plate is veg or salad -excluding spuds - works well. There are hardly any calories in the veg but they are filling.

Also a habit of chewing and swallowing before I load my fork for the next mouthful helps to stop me overeating and knowing when I'm full.

Agree with having scoops or bowls that give precision without scales.

I also use a set of cooking measuring spoons to make sure I don't overdo it with the sploshing of olive oil etc.

I'm mostly having a weekend off but not overdoing it as I'm finding I don't really want to.

Spatchcock Mosely and most other fasting experts recommend against extended zero calorie fasts without medical supervision
I strongly recommend limiting zero cals to no longer than maximum 22-24 hours, e.g. from 1 supper to the next supper

Extended fasts should be professionally monitored to check e.g. BP, heart, any dizziness, the balance & quantities of minerals like potassium & sodium in the body

• as there is a danger the body is not able to obtain enough nutrients from stored fat, for its essential systems & processes

Also, for health and longterm weight maintenance you should aim to retain or ideally increase muscle mass.
Repeated extended fasts can reduce muscle mass

Varady (some of whose work Mosely used) did a study comparing single FDs (in ADF) with 0 cals / 25% TDEE / 50% TDEE and found 25% TDEE - which she & Mosely round off to 500 / 600 for women / men - is the optimum for weight loss and muscle retention.

Scoops are an excellent help, Coffee

re a small plate: is the problem you keep going back for seconds ? - that's a habit to break, as it can lead to uncontrolled eating.
Maybe one of those partitioned plates, which are larger than a small plate, also to get the balance of veg

You probably need 4 meals pe day, to keep portions sensible and stop snacking from hunger

Get used to eyeballing portions, e.g. useful chart

I've gone froma 32 waist to a 28 waist since May. Courtesy of IF 16:8 and 15:9 when I'm busier.

Filling half the plate with veg is an excellent rule too, as poached suggests
but keep an eye on any creamy/oily dressing - I suggest no more than a level tbsp per meal

Congratulations on your waist NSV, W989
Very good for health and shape

@BigChocFrenzy thanks. Just need to maintain now and not end up back where I started.

[quote W989]@BigChocFrenzy thanks. Just need to maintain now and not end up back where I started.[/quote]
...
I posted maintenance tips / guide for IF upthread

Some of us have maintained on IF for years - 6 years for me
We found we all need a plan, because (another of our thread mantras):

If you slip back to your old WOE, you'll slip back to your old waist & weight