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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2020 15:36

If anyone is doing the BSD / Fast800 (daily low carb 800 calories)
Mosely suggests you may need to cut back on vigorous exercise, at least at first.

He suggests, as it is a VLCD WOE,
that people do 10k steps most days
and also just 2-5 minutes Fat Blasts (v intense HIIT) on 3-5 days per week

OP posts:
KylieKoKo · 07/09/2020 16:32

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy - I will give it a go. If I start to feel terrible I can always stop. I have been going for a few weeks so I am used to it the exercise.

I can't handle caffeine this late in the day so will give the coffee a miss or I'll be awake til the small hours.

No danger of me going for a long run anytime soon so I safe on that front Grin

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my newbie questions. I really appreciate it.

Beautiful3 · 07/09/2020 18:20

Kitchen closed at 611. Well done Monday fasters. I'm doing it again tomorrow, who's with me?

MadauntofA · 07/09/2020 18:44

Thanks Bigchoc. That's good to know there is a bit of give for the 2nd day. I've done a FD today, finished at 490. Will do a mini tomorrow. Well done fellow Monday fasters!

KylieKoKo · 07/09/2020 19:57

My first fast day is done on 497 calories.

I actually feel quite full after my soup (happy to share recipe if anyone fancies it) but not sure how long the feeling will last once my body realises I've tricked it with low calorie food

I'm planning my second fast for Wednesday.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2020 20:19

Well done on an excellent 1st FD, Kylie

I recommend you drink some water and then clean your teeth - psychologically the clean feel and minty taste reduces the urge to nibble
Also, have an early night, to maximise your fasting benefits

Well done on your FD too, MadAunt, Beaut
Looks like you'll be keeping each other company fasting tomorrow as well

OP posts:
ilovebagpuss · 07/09/2020 20:40

Monday fast day done it felt a bit hard after a greedy weekend but I have closed up around 550.
@BigChocFrenzy interested to hear about the types of exercise that are better for FD’s I used to swim but always felt wiped out so will definitely take that on board and opt for a walk.

KylieKoKo · 07/09/2020 21:42

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy

I have cleaned my teeth. I'm feeling a bit peckish so I'm going to have a herbal tea and see if that helps.

Question for people who have been doing this a while. How much do you generally lose in a month? I'm hoping for 4-5 pounds in the first month. Is that realistic?

PersisFord · 07/09/2020 22:54

Hi everyone, sorry to fall off the radar, I was struck down with an awful urine infection! Ropey few days but feeling better and have just closed the kitchen on 502 calories. No fruit, just plain Greek yoghurt (a little bit!) and an options hot chocolate. Feeling ok, and will plan to do another on Wednesday.

I have a good tip for anyone else who struggles with nibbling leftovers in the kitchen. In fact, I think it was BCF who first said it to me all those years ago and it has stuck! You are NOT the family dustbin, your body deserves better nutrition than other people’s’ scraps. Has helped me a LOT!

My gym has just reopened and I went this morning. I usually run on the treadmill but that seemed a bit of a waste of my precious hour, so I did some weights (badly). Can anyone recommend some websites or videos or something for easy free weight exercises? I used to use the machines but it would be much easier to stay in one little area at the gym without having to constantly be cleaning!

Well done to the Monday fasters, and power up to Tuesdays crowd!

lightlypoached · 07/09/2020 23:03

Hello, may I join please? I was on another thread but it went dead (feeling like Billy no mates 😂)

Started 21 days of veryfast800 on aug 21st with a view to losing lockdown gain. So starting at 64.5 and now at 61.8, aiming for 60kg. This very fast phase finishes on Friday and after will stay on 16:8 for maintenance and health reasons.

Anyone else on a veryfast?

Am loving the food and recipes from the Fast800 book.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/09/2020 00:08

Well done on your FD, Bagpuss, Persis

Sorry to hear you've been ill, Persis

Yes, this is a mantra for DC leftovers:
"There is a rubbish bin in the kitchen, which shouldn‘t be you"

That sounds very doable, Kylie
Most people average about that per month, usually with more the first month

Welcome, poached 🙂
and well done on your SV

Mosely's veryfast800 sounds just like his Fast800 and BSD (VLCD daily low carb 800 calories) - I suspect he slightly tweaks the WOE and chooses a new name for each new book Wink

I suggest you continue on vfast800 until your target, even if that's not by Friday
(Mosely writes that people can stay on it for up to 12 weeks, for those whomhave much more than you to lose)

It's good you have a defined maintenance plan - almost everyone needs this

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/09/2020 00:14

Persis This is a list of videos I put together before, for people restarting lifts, or beginners

I suggest starting with 3-5 reps (repeats) of as many of these exercises as you want, then building up to 8,
then 10, then gradually do sets of 8 or 10 - but that takes weeks
You'll probably want to do different exercises on different days

It's absolutely fine to take breaks during any routine, whenever you need them.

Beginner Pushups

Bench Press
https://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/PectoralSternal/DBBenchPress Dumbbell

Dumbbell Fly
https://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/PectoralSternal/DBFly

Shoulder press
https://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBShoulderPress

Front raise
https://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/DBFrontRaise

Side raise
https://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidLateral/DBLateralRaise

Triceps
https://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Triceps/DBOneArmTriExtBench

Deadlift Straight leg
https://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/DBStraightLegDeadlift

Bent-Over Row
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/DBBentOverRow.html

Squats - bodyweight

Lunges - bodyweight

Abs- 4 minutes standing:

Abs -10 minutes floor:

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 08/09/2020 16:48

Kitchen closed at 590. Hows your day been MadAunt? Going to fast again tomorrow, who's with me?

KylieKoKo · 08/09/2020 17:17

I've had a headache all day and I'm wondering if it's linked to not eating very much yesterday. I drank loads of water and herbal tea and a lot of miso soup so I don't think it's linked to dehydration. Has anyone else had this?

I do get headaches from time to time so could be unrelated.

lightlypoached · 08/09/2020 17:46

Thanks @BigChoc. I'm at 61.4 this morning, so steady progress! I've promised myself a glass of wine and a bit of cheese on Friday.... but can be sensible the rest of the day and will treat myself to 1200 calories that day. (Wooo, pushing the boat our!)

The 'very fast' is just the 16:8 but done every day for a few weeks. He mentions it briefly in the book. Your explanations on this post are lovely and clear and helpful. Thank you

MadauntofA · 08/09/2020 18:17

Hi Beaut, just finished my mini at just under 1000. Found it hard though - was in the middle of a consultation with someone at around 11,and my stomach went crazy! I think I prefer FDs separated, I'm not sure how you do 3 in a row!!

Beautiful3 · 08/09/2020 18:50

Well done MadAunt that's still good, well done. My mind seems to accept getting the 3 days at the start of the week out of the way, better. I'm busier during those days so don't think about the food as much. I'll be honest, eating a handful of almond nuts for lunch really kills that hunger. I couldn't fast fri-sunday, as I view them as rest days! I look forward to my 1200 calories on the non fasting days. However I'm getting into a habit now of never having breakfast so that I can have better lunch/dinners on non fast days.

PersisFord · 08/09/2020 19:07

Thanks BCF that’s perfect!

I used to get headaches when I started 5:2 Kylie, a teaspoon of marmite helps. On FD and on NFD. I don’t any more.

I’ve signed up for a spin class tomorrow (FD), haven’t done spin for about 5 years. I’m looking forward to it but a bit apprehensive!

Good luck everyone!

BigChocFrenzy · 08/09/2020 19:36

That's fine for your planned miniFD, MadAunt
Minis are 800-1000
Sounds like you would find this easier with an NFD between

Well done on your FD too, Beaut
You've found the system that fits your life and is sustainable for you

Kylie As persis posted, next FD glug a level teasp marmite (10 cals) mid-morning and mid-afternoon
This replenishes salt and other minerals which are often low when your body is adapting to fasting and the much reduced food and can cause headaches.

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 08/09/2020 19:49

I did want to try it, but I agree Bigchoc, I think I do better with a NFD between. I'm definitely a breakfast lover, so my Tuesday porridge was missed, and I felt like I was missing out - I don't feel like that on my FD usually.
I get the Fri-Sun feeling though Beaut, and feel the same - like to get my FDs done by Thursday at the latest!
I do think that hunger/ fasting/ eating patterns are 80% mental - if we purely ate to sustain our needs, it would solve a lot of problems. Undoing years of ingrained thoughts about food etc is not easy. Also hard to know how not to mess up the next generation- I grew up in the 80's when a lot of women (including my mum) were constantly on a diet/ obsessed with low fat foods etc!

lightlypoached · 08/09/2020 20:15

How are all the fasters today and what did you eat?

For me
B : rolled oats porridge made with water, tsp peanut butter and half a banana
L: veggie rye bread topped with chilli lime avo and cherry toms
D: sea bass fillet and home made ratatouille

820 calories.

Beautiful3 · 08/09/2020 20:27

MadAunt, I grew up in the 80s too but my parents are meat and veg every meal time. They are obsessed with sweets/cakes/chocolates. They actually made me obese at age 10. I had no idea how much I was supposed to consume. Age 12 I met with a dietician I was shocked to learn about bad foods! Within a year I became a healthy weight. All my life I've always tried to eat healthy. However being period menopausal my weight shot up by 3 stone! No amount of exercise has touched it! But this calorie counting is new to me and amazing. As it means instead of cutting out all junk, I can have a cookie or piece of cake on non fast days, as long as its within my limit. For the first time I can choose what I want but have to judge if i want something that will fill me up (protein) or a very small piece of something yummy. I feel like this is a comfortable long term diet plan.

Beautiful3 · 08/09/2020 20:28

Peri

Coffeeandcookies · 08/09/2020 21:21

FD done, kitchen closed at 605 calories. Well done lightlypoached, and your menu sounds delicious!

I had no breakfast, beetroot salad with a boiled egg for lunch and a vegetarian fry for dinner (egg, mushrooms, half a sofa farl, tomato and beans).

Planning another FD for Friday, but we've now been invited round to friends in the evening so may have to rethink!

MadauntofA · 08/09/2020 21:43

I'm definitely in the peri-menopausal camp (along with a dodgy thyroid) too, and weight has crept on despite eating healthily. This is the only way I have managed to control it and still feel like I am not completely depriving myself or constantly starving. Also getting my head round this (or a version of this) continuing long term as a WOL to maintain a healthy weigh along with the other health benefits - seems doable a it is so flexible.
Well done Coffee and Lightly- I love seeing what people eat, gives me inspiration for my FDs!