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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Coffeeandcookies · 05/09/2020 09:26

Really pleased, weighed myself this morning and am 1lb away from moving out of the overweight category in the BMI calculations to the healthy weight category!!

Have lost a total of 3 stone since January and my waist measurement has dropped by 6 inches, I am delighted!!

I would appreciate some advice about future targets. I think I should try to lose another 4 or 5lb to settle towards the middle of the healthy BMI category, but I know from past experience the challenge for me is maintaining my weight loss. Does anyone have any advice or suggestions of what has worked for you regarding maintaining weight loss long-term?

BigChocFrenzy · 05/09/2020 11:40

Congratulations on your SV and inches loss, Coffee
Fab progress

Suggestions to assess goal

Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI With body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

. Comfortably within healthy BMI, so < 24 if possible
. Waist < ½ your height, ideal is < 0.45 but this is often too tough for apple shapes, so don't worry
. Feeling healthy & energetic
. Not struggling to keep to an over- ambitious goal of your age 20 bod.
. However, many find after reaching their initial goal that they can comfortably aim further

Maintenance Plan

Some of us have maintained on IF for years - 6 years for me
We found we all need a definite plan, because:

If you slip back to your old WOE, you'll slip back to your old waist & weight

At Goal:
. Continue your WOE for 2 weeks, to check you remain at goal weight.
. Note your final weight, waist, hip measurements.

General Tips
. Weigh yourself at least weekly, or the day after a vacation
. Return to 5:2 immediately if you gain 5 lb or 1 inch around the waist
. Before you go on holiday, fix the date for your 1st FD in the 1st week after you return, to zap regain asap before it accumulates, as well as to get back into the fasting habit.
. Take regular exercise, at least a brisk walk outside most days
. No snacking between meals EVER, even on holiday.
. Try to keep to NHS alcohol limits
. Drink plenty of water
. Tweak WOL as need be - as you get older, enter meno, new meds, lifestyle changes etc

Possible Eating Plans:
. Keep on 5:2 and eat back the FD cals, so you can indulge at WE or social events
. My personal plan = 2 x miniFDs (800-1000 cals)
. Do 6:1 / 13:1, if this is sufficient for your bod
. Daily 16:8 or 14:10 averaging daily TDEE

OP posts:
Waspie · 05/09/2020 13:37

Wow coffee that's amazing. Congratulations on your inches lost and your weight loss.

It's great that you are back in the swing of your gym sessions BCF. I hadn't realised gym's had been open for long in Germany. I envy your Rhine walks! It's been chilly here this week but still bright and dry so the dog and I have been walking in the woods and local footpaths. I love Autumn Smile

Coffeeandcookies · 05/09/2020 15:51

Thank you so much BigChoc, your advice is exactly what I need as it is the maintenance of weight loss I find most difficult.

I quite like the idea of either 6:1 or 2 mini-FDs as it gives the structure I need and I know I can do it because I've been doing the FDs successfully. My only concern is that both require continued careful calorie counting every day and I'm not sure I will be as diligent in counting everything I eat when I'm potentially doing this for the rest of my life. The reason I've been able to lose weight is that I have counted every single morsel I've eaten to make sure I'm not exceeding my calories. Realistically, can I do that forever? Probably not.

However, your advice on weighing regularly and kicking straight back into 5:2 if there is a 5lb increase is great as I know I can do that - even if I slack off a bit with counting calories that gives me a definite point of where I must not let things go past before taking control again.

Anyhow, I'll be sticking with 5:2 for the meantime until I get down to

BigChocFrenzy · 05/09/2020 21:35

Most of us tend to eat a limited number of FD meals, or otherwise get the hang of eating within 800 or so calories, without counting
With the buffer of the FD deficit, I find I don't have to worry about the 5 NFDs - I know roughly the amounts I should eat and I stick to meals, no snacks between. Ever

The daily weighing gives prompt warning of a trend, so you can be stricter again if need be.

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 05/09/2020 22:05

Well done coffee! Had an accidental fast day today, at 360.

Bumpsadaisie · 05/09/2020 22:15

Watching

BigChocFrenzy · 05/09/2020 22:24

Well done on your serendipitous FD, Beaut

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 06/09/2020 09:17

Amazing progress Coffee, and great to have the advice from our guru Bigchoc. I'm quite a bit away from you at the moment, but look forward to hitting the "normal" weight category too.
Bonus FD Beaut - I hope you were distracted not to eat much in a good way!
NFD today. Will have to check work schedule to see which days will be FDs next week!

Coffeeandcookies · 06/09/2020 09:49

Thanks MadAunt, if you'd asked me a few months ago whether I thought I'd reach this point I would have been sceptical, but here I am! I hope it helps encourage people on this thread that it can be done - I'm not naturally skinny, I'm quite a 'chunky' build and wasn't sure if I'd be able to lose enough weight to get into the normal range, so am really pleased to be so close and hopefully others still on their journey will be encouraged.

And yes, 100% agree that BigChoc is definitely the guru on this thread! Though I appreciate all the little snippets of advice and encouragement from everyone, it really helps having the support of people who are doing the same things and understand!

FDs for this week planned to be Tue and Fri for me, good luck to anyone starting the week with a FD tomorrow!

BigChocFrenzy · 06/09/2020 14:55

I'm a science geek, not a guru 😂

A beautiful sunny day here; I'm just back from a lovely walk along the Rhine
Enjoy the rest of the WE, everyone ☀️

OP posts:
KylieKoKo · 06/09/2020 21:05

I'm starting tomorrow!

BigChocFrenzy · 06/09/2020 21:48

Welcome, Kylie 🙂
and good luck

I recommend that tonight (if you haven't already done so) you plan & calorie count your entire menu for tomorrow's FD
and then tomorrow: drink lots of water - and stick to your planned menu !

OP posts:
KylieKoKo · 06/09/2020 21:51

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy

Tomorrow's meagre food is planned and waiting for me in the fridge. I'm focusing on protein and veg and miso soup!

moonlight1705 · 06/09/2020 22:23

Well done coffee on your amazing weight loss.

I've got a little non SV in that I had to go buy new bras and had a very weird masked fitting. I've gone down from a 38H to a 36FF so it is obviously taking off the inches Grin

Coffeeandcookies · 06/09/2020 23:12

That's brilliant moonlight, congrats!

MadauntofA · 07/09/2020 07:01

That's great Moon. I was looking at 1st bras with my DD on Saturday at M&S (rubbish selection for 28A!) and I was telling her they measure your size - we were trying to figure out if they would still do it masked!!
Welcome Kylie!
I have a question about B2b's as I haven't done them before. I think 2x minis and a FD will fit with my work week instead of 2FDs. I know if you b2b 2 FDs, you up the calories slightly. I presume if you FD/mini or mini/ mini, you stick to the same 500 or 800?

ilovebagpuss · 07/09/2020 08:15

Checking in for a Monday fast. Good luck to new starters.
I have thin bagel with a slice of Turkey for lunch not sure what Dinner will be yet possibly a salmon fillet and veg.
Feel a bit sluggish think I ate back too many calories at the weekend I need to change my mindset that weekend is for scoffing!

Waspie · 07/09/2020 10:28

Morning everyone. I'm checking in for a FD too. Black coffee for breakfast, cup-a-soup for lunch and tuna with stir fried veg for dinner. I started the day with a 4 mile walk with the dog. Lovely day with just a hint of autumnal chill Grin

Good luck on your first FD Kylie!

You are certainly our guru BCF. Thank you for all of your support and advice Flowers

KylieKoKo · 07/09/2020 11:59

It's my first fast day today. So far I've had coffee and herbal tea. I'm not actually too hungry yet but will have a Miso soup when I get hunger pangs.

KylieKoKo · 07/09/2020 12:00

Then I'll be having a boiled egg and roast aubergine, tomato and courgette when I next get hungry. Evening meal will be a prawn and veg soup made with miso soup with extra chili and garlic which I make quite a lot anyway.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2020 13:27

Well done on your bra NSV, Moonlight
That's lost inches

Good luck on your 1st FD, Kylie
and good luck too, Waspie, bagpuss and any other Monday fasters

I'm having a maintenance miniFD today
I had black coffee for breakfast,
then strength & flexibility class @ the gym, followed by a sunny Rhine walk
I've got spin this evening, so I've had a small bolognese pasta with Skyr to make lunch my main meal

My inflatable dinghy feels too scary on water 😱 - it's basically a big balloon with a stopper !
So I'm taking it out now to lie on the Rhine bank in the sun and Kindle away.

bagpuss That is an important habit to develop, not to undo the hard work at weekends:
weekends can naturally be more relaxed than weekdays, but without over-eating or excessive alcohol / junky treats

MadAunt For b2b miniFD, best to keep to the same 800-1000 FD, with maybe Mini1= about 800 and mini2=up to 1000
For b2b FD / mini I recommend FD=650 and mini 800-1000
So you always have a little more leeway on the 2nd consecutive fats, whatever type it is.

If the FDs or miniFDs are separated by an NFD, then keep to your usual limits for wach

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2020 13:28

" a little more leeway on the 2nd consecutive fats fast !"

OP posts:
KylieKoKo · 07/09/2020 13:52

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy

I've still not eaten and am weirdly not hungry.

One question, do you excercise on fast days? I have a hiit class tonight which I'd like to go to and I think I'll be ok. I'll have my first "meal" sometime this afternoon before hand and then the other one afterwards. Do you think this is ok?

Congratulations to those who have lost weight/inches this week

BigChocFrenzy · 07/09/2020 15:30

Your HIIT class should be OK, Kylie but try it and see
Tip:
Have a black no sugar coffee or double espresso 10 minutes before training, to help release fat stores for burning as fuel

Most people who already exercise can do certain types of exercise on FDs:

What to avoid:
Long steady state, medium intensity cardio sessions, e.g. swimming, runs of > 40 minutes
because long cardio sessions preferentially use glcogen stores which will be low on FDs
And on the morning after an FD -so don't do long runs or swims on that NFD nmorning either

Also avoid very long sessions of any kind of exercise,
so keep FD exercise down to 1 hour, at least until you become an experienced faster

What works best:
HIIT and strength training, as they tend to access more bodyfat for fuel rather than prioritising glycogen

Also walking, not too briskly or up hills, i.e. very low intensity and not requiring a lot of fuel suddenly
I usually walk home from the gym after training, which works well as a cooldown (I go straight home to shower) annd also helps burn released fat from stores.

OP posts:
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