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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Beautiful3 · 02/09/2020 21:49

Kitchen closed at 730. Well done Madaunt and persis. Wow you're making Christmas cake already?! Bet it smells yummy in your house today.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2020 22:31

Well done on your FD, beaut

Good luck tomorrow, bagpuss
It helps if you can get into a routine, so 5:2 becoms a habit

Many good recipes here:

BBC Good Food 200-400 cal meals
BBC Good Food 500 cal meals

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 03/09/2020 06:22

I'm impressed at your organisation Moon! I'm not a fan of Christmas cake, but I used to love making it every year, and "feeding it" with my mum - you are right, it needs plenty of time to soak up all that alcohol! My grandmother used to make Dundee cake - I used to love that, must make it one day!

PersisFord · 03/09/2020 08:08

Weigh in day for me - 65.2 kg down from 67.5. That’s mostly water though - started my period and a few days low carbing. Good luck Thursday fasters!

Waspie · 03/09/2020 11:02

Morning fellow fasters Brew

Good SV Persis

Apologies, I haven't posted much but I have been fasting Monday's and Thursday's as usual, although I do admit to a couple of days where the days were more mini days than FD's Blush. However I am still heading in the right direction and have lost a kilo in the past month. I'm only weighing myself monthly now and just monitoring loss/gain overall. I just find that less stressful.

Your Christmas sounds lovely moonlight. I always have good intentions of being super organised but end up in a mad scramble at the end!

My son started school again today. He was so pleased to be going back. It really feels like a little normality is returning to life even if that normality involves face masks, temperature checks at the gate and social distancing.

I hope everyone is well.

Good luck Thursday fasters Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2020 12:04

Congratulations on your SV, Persis
A good start back

Congratulations on your SV too, Waspie
That's good progress
Monthly weighing is a good idea, especially when you get to the stage of not much more to go and hence slower loss.

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 03/09/2020 13:44

Measured my body today. Looks like my bust and waist are unchanged. My arms and hips have lost an inch, which seems alot -an inch loss around an arm? My face looks alot thinner too. Still fearful of being weighed, thinks it stems from weight watchers when I never lost any weight!😂

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2020 14:17

Inches loss is positive, Beaut
but no need to weigh yet if it worries you

It is very individual where we lose weight first,
even with healthy habits

Midsection fat / apple shape may mean the need to cut back on sugary treats & alcohol and / or or it may be that your individual body is built to hold onto fat there and give it up last

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 03/09/2020 14:22

Thanks BigChoc. I dont drink alcohol, but do eat a small bar of chocolate around three times a week, also a piece of cake on sundays. So it could be that, will try to cut back on those.

ilovebagpuss · 03/09/2020 17:57

Thursday done feel like I might have had a bit too much salad with my chicken but if it’s taken me a bit over it’s not too bad.
Hope any other Thursday fasters are doing ok.
I’m off to wag my windows now to keep busy Grin

ilovebagpuss · 03/09/2020 17:58

Sigh *wash the windows

moonlight1705 · 03/09/2020 19:42

Done on 690 today so feeling good about my b2b.

Well done bagpuss, use that energy for something good Smile eyes up dirty windows here

Coffeeandcookies · 03/09/2020 20:37

FD done, finished on 554 calories. Finding it a little harder now the kids are back to school and I'm back at work, days are getting much more busy again and sometimes I just want to grab a coffee and cake to sit down and actually get 5 minutes to myself!

Have found I need to plan every mouthful before a FD so that I know my calories are all accounted for, as this helps me not succumb to temptation on the spur of the moment.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2020 21:58

Well done on your FD, bagpuss, moonlight, coffee

Bagpuss I think spiders have been madly wagging their willies all over my windows & mosquito mesh - covered with webs and not long since I scrubbed them all off

OP posts:
ilovebagpuss · 03/09/2020 23:00

@BigChocFrenzy thanks -I found lots of spiders all trying to bunk down for the winter around the edges of the frames. Just when I finished a big pigeon flew into my obviously well cleaned window and left a big smeary print!! He flew off crossly and I had to redo the window.
Enough excitement for one evening Grin

inthethickofit19 · 04/09/2020 04:39

@MadauntofA

Well done ilove. Roasted cauliflower is one of my favourites- I make a big batch of roasted veg on a Sunday for the week, makes increasing veg in my diet easier. I love roasted aubergine as well.
Struggling to sleep and just doing a catch up!

Please talk me through roasting for the week - how long does it last in the fridge? This would help me massively as one of the reasons I struggle with 5:2 is the time element of cooking healthy meals with a 1.5 and 3.6 year old!

MadauntofA · 04/09/2020 06:19

Morning inthethick. I tend to do my meal prep on a Sunday - will generally make some soup for lunches, chop some raw veg for my DDs (to encourage them!) stew some apple for porridge etc and do my veg. The veg is my base, then I will cook some meat/ fish when I get home from work, and add some kind of carb for DH/ DDs if they are eating with me - makes it all much quicker for the week - less to prepare, and wash up!
The veg is generally a large roasting tray, variety of cauliflower, courgette, aubergine, mushrooms, red onion, sweet potato, any veg that I fancy at the market (mushrooms take less cooking, so add at the end). I absolutely love Jerusalem artichoke, but they have a short season, sometimes I add small new potatoes. Add olive oil, salt and pepper and some cumin seeds (or not). Cover with foil, 200 degrees, cook for 30mins then remove foil, mix and roast for another 20-30mins depending on how well done you like it. I have small glass dishes with plastic lids that I portion it out into, and then just take one as I need it. They last 5 days in my fridge.
Another dish I love is adding a drained tin of chickpeas mixed with a couple of spoons of harissa paste into the veg when I remove the foil- substantial as a dish on its own. Or adding a tin of tomatoes into the veg at the start, then at the end adding some artichokes (the ones you get in a jar of oil)

Waspie · 04/09/2020 10:21

Does the oil you roast in (or is in the jar) push the calorie count way up though Madaunt? I love roasted veg and something like a ratatouille would made an excellent warming autumn meal but I've never been sure how to count the calories so I've stuck mainly to dry stir frying or boiling/steaming green veges.

Although I've been doing this for 6 months now I have stuck to the same meals week in week out and I need to add some variety. I will look at the 5:2 recipe thread and the BBC Good Food links posted by BCF earlier.

My FD yesterday was fine. I was hungry early on so I had a small slice of unbuttered wholemeal toast and black coffee for breakfast and then a mushroom omelette with salad (no dressing) for dinner. Next one is Monday.

Good luck to those fasting today Brew

BigChocFrenzy · 04/09/2020 10:25

Well done on your FD, Waspie

I'm fasting today. Anyone else ?
Just back from a back & abs flexibility class at the gym

OP posts:
LemonPeonies · 04/09/2020 10:28

Hi can I join please? I've been doing fast 16:8 for a month, I have MyFitnessPal app to track calories etc. I've only lost 7lbs so far but I am breastfeeding a 9 month old who has gone back to feeding all night the last week or 2 so trying to tweak! Smile

LemonPeonies · 04/09/2020 10:30

Forgot to say, I'm 12 stone 5lbs now, want to get down to 10 stone ish as I look my best at that weight.

Waspie · 04/09/2020 11:09

Thanks BCF. I hope your fast day goes well. Wonderful for you to have the gym open again!

Hi LemonPeonies - welcome Flowers. 7lbs in a month is loads! Well done.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/09/2020 13:24

Welcome, lemon 🙂
Congratulations on your SV - that's a good start

If you are doing 16:8, then you will need a daily calorie deficit
I recommend you use Mosely's TDEE Calc to check your TDEE
(often better than the TDEE calc in mfp or elsewhere)

He says that exercisers should calculate with one activity level lower than they think they do.

You need a daily calorie deficit on 16:8 to lose
You could roughly estimate that at this stage there are about 200 extra calories burned from BF, so I suggest aiming for TDEE-200

Also, if you find 16:8 is tough, you could move to 14:10, i.e. a 10-hour eating window

Important:
No snacking - eat say 4 meals with BF, nothing between
Snacks keep insulin raised most of the day, hinder fat-burning and increase overall hunger

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/09/2020 13:30

Waspie Gyms have been open here (Germany) since 16 May Grin
So I've been going 5 days per week ever since 🏋🏼‍♂️🚴🏼‍♀️
As a recently retired Lady of Leisure, I've plenty of time and I'm loving it

It's a gorgeous sunny 28C today, just right and I really enjoyed my usual Rhine walk
I've bought a little dinghy 🚣🏽‍♀️ from Amazon, so once I've inflated it, I'll check if it stays that way (!) and then try a cautious row - I live right by the Rhine, so not far to go if I get wet Grin

OP posts:
LemonPeonies · 04/09/2020 13:51

Thank you for the tips! Smile I am currently in calorie deficit, eating around 1200 a day. On days I had less without meaning too I think my milk supply dropped a bit so trying to stick to that as much as possible. I tend to eat about once or twice a day now. Yes snacks were my nemesis tbh, was always eating cakes/chocolate/biscuits but now hardly ever have a treat like that. Yogurt or fruit were a substitute but trying to just stick to healthy meals now. I try to walk mode although the weather has been rubbish here lately so not always possible. I have a set of weights I've been using which is helping me with strength too.