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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 92: Don’t train to be skinny Train to be a lean bad ass. Come join the bad asses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 06/08/2020 15:19

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Goal Weight For BodyFrame
Calc
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
PersisFord · 01/09/2020 15:17

Hello everyone!! I lost loads on 5:2 in 2014, have maintained really well with ongoing 5:2 since then but got COVID, lost loads of weight, and have overshot a bit with my return to health. I also was getting a bit slack with both my FD and NFD, and I miss the discipline of it. Plus my eczema is worse and I wonder if it might make it a bit better.

So....today is my first FD of my new regime. Weight was 67.5 kg this morning. My first target is 65 which was my initial target. Am going to do FD today and tomorrow to get myself going but then moving to mondays and wednesdays as my usual plan.

Good luck everyone!

BigChocFrenzy · 01/09/2020 16:10

Welcome back, Persis and good luck on your FD
Sorry to hear you've been ill, but you'll soon be back in the fasting swing

OP posts:
Beautiful3 · 01/09/2020 18:57

Kitchen closed at 565. Going to try another fast tomorrow. Fingers crossed that goes well!

BigChocFrenzy · 01/09/2020 20:27

Well done, beaut
For a b2b, you can have extra calories tomorrow: 650+85 from today, so 735 calories

OP posts:
PersisFord · 01/09/2020 21:40

530 cals today. Feels good. Good night every one

Coffeeandcookies · 01/09/2020 22:12

FD done, 539 calories today.

Beautiful3 · 01/09/2020 22:36

That's great news BigChoc, I didn't realise I could do that! Looking forward to tomorrow now! Well done Tuesday fasters. Who's with me tomorrow?

PersisFord · 01/09/2020 22:43

I’m in beaut. A nice little kickstart. Then weigh in Thursday morning for me.

PersisFord · 01/09/2020 22:46

I also didn’t realise you could carry calories over!

Can I ask as well - what does everyone think about fruit on FDs? I’m a shocking sugar addict, and when I started finding FDs difficult I tried having an apple or some berries, all calorie counted. But it made it about a million times harder, I’m assuming because of the sugar? I switched to an options hot choc which was much better but just as sweet tasting.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2020 00:22

fruit

If you are very sensitive to sugar, it may be best to avoid fruit on FDs

However, when fruit is a problem it is often just that people eat it on its own as a low cal minimeal
- every meal should contain protein, on FDs and NFDs,
or they may have too much fruit

Most people on FDs can manage a few berries with Greek yoghurt, or as a pud after the main meal

Mosely recommends, even on NFDs, to keep to no more than 2 portions of fruit daily

good low carb fruits are:
all kinds of berries, apple, pear - the latter two best with skin, for fibre which reduces the insulin impact

High sugar fruits are tropical, e.g. mango, pineapple, banana

Also, if you are sensitive to sugar / carbs, avoid fruit juice and dried fruit,
which have very concentrated sugar in comparison to eating fresh fruit

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2020 00:26

b2b has up to 650 calories per day

  • b2b is the original 5:2 version of Dr Michelle Harvie, whose earlier work Mosely used in developing his own version

My hypothesis, which has worked well for many folk, is that you can optionally split the 1300 calories over the 2 days to have more calories on FD2,
because you start FD2 already fasted

This is useful if you plan an ordinary FD of 500 cals and then decide the next morning to have a b2b - you then have 800 cals available

OP posts:
PersisFord · 02/09/2020 06:28

Brilliant, thanks. I think starting to log all my food again will be so helpful for things like this - maybe my tricky days have been low protein days!

MadauntofA · 02/09/2020 06:51

Persis, I love fruit after my evening meal - I don't quite feel finished if I don't have a fruit/ piece of dark chocolate (probably habit!)
For FDs, I usually have a couple of frozen cherries/ raspberries after my FD meal (tend to eat most calories in one meal at 6ish) and that gives me a bit of a sweet hit without too many calories/ sugar. They last longer frozen!! I have also discovered liquorice herbal tea which has a bit of sweetness without the sugar/ sweeteners.

MadauntofA · 02/09/2020 06:53

I'm in today Beaut and Persis

moonlight1705 · 02/09/2020 08:30

Morning all, I am starting my b2b today. For some reason I am now finding b2b's easier to do than two separate FDs.

Good to know about the fruit sugar, I do not normally eat fruit after a meal but do enjoy it as part of the meal i.e. banana with breakfast or like today, I have got mango on my chicken salad.

PersisFord · 02/09/2020 08:42

I used to love twinings butter mint tea - tasted like Murray mints and filled my need for something sweet nicely. But it has been discontinued Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2020 11:10

Good luck on your FD today, Beaut, Persis, Madaunt, Moonlight

Remember:
Drink more water
Much more effective hydration than flavoured diet fizz, which can also spike insulin in some people, like sugar
Plain fizzy water is fine

and tip to avoid headaches:
glug a level teasp of Marmite (10 cals) mid-morning and / or mid-afternoon
This replenishes salt and other minerals that can be low when fasting, due to reduced food intake

OP posts:
MadauntofA · 02/09/2020 18:49

Twinnings buttermilk tea sounds lovely!
I'm finished here at 530. How are my fellow Wednesday fasters?

PersisFord · 02/09/2020 19:19

600 on the nose and done. Hard work today though!

moonlight1705 · 02/09/2020 20:03

664 for me today and feeling full after fishcakes.

I did make the Christmas cake today and ended up have a little luck of the bowl. It was very tiny though as I scrapped it thoroughly so it doesn't count right? Blush

moonlight1705 · 02/09/2020 20:03

Lick of the bowl even, I don't know what lucking a bowl does!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2020 20:42

Well done on your FD, Persis, Madaunt, Moonlight

Don't worry, Moonlight a tiny lick doesn't count Grin
You are really organised with your Christmas cake; do you always make it this early ?

OP posts:
PersisFord · 02/09/2020 21:06

It really made me nostalgic moonlight - my gran used to make our Christmas cake and we would stir it and make a wish. She is long gone, and nobody here likes fruit cake so we don’t have it....but I would love to make one for the ceremony and the smell!

Thanks for the lovely memory!

ilovebagpuss · 02/09/2020 21:36

@moonlight1705 Christmas Cake! What a lovely thought I always hate the early Christmas shopping type hints but making something so lovely that needs to be made early is just so cosy and special.
I might have to make a small one just for those smells.
2nd fast day tomorrow (I have lost a bit in the past with 5:2 but this I need to get back to it) and I am learning to be prepared so I don’t fail. I tend to stick to same old things that I know work I feel a bit boring recipe wise perhaps I need to make a big batch or something to freeze.
Does anyone else stick to a few tried and tested meals or should I try and be more adventurous?
I love reading everyone’s chat and taking tips and hints.

moonlight1705 · 02/09/2020 21:44

Christmas cake should, in my humble opinion, be made in September as it gives you chance to stuff it with alcohol Smile.

DD came in today after nursery and just started sniffing loudly and rubbing her stomach to try and see if she would get any Grin. Delia's classic cake with black treacle recipe is a treat and reminds me of my childhood.

Sadly I'm a big Christmas person so not sure I should tell you all about the family Christmas present Google spreadsheet as I'll just get overexcited Blush

Hope all you Wednesday fasters have had a good day.