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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 15/04/2020 22:43

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
homeschoolhell · 20/05/2020 10:01

hope you get your big salad spatch Grin
well done on the SV emcla you'll soon be under 9!

mrd what about some fish for the BBQ? Or make some chicken skewers, sounds yummy!

NFD today, not eaten yet, I'm finding that I am not hungry in the mornings even after a FD so I'm going with it and having 2 biggish meals a day (lots of veg / salad) and some sort of afters (usually yogurt and berries) or some cheese and crackers or a small bit of cake or choc if I fancy it, and no snacks inbetween. So far so good, lets see how long it lasts.

Good luck diet and all the other weds fasters

Iamblossom · 20/05/2020 11:05

I want a haircut and a big salad by the Rhine dammit!

Waspie · 20/05/2020 12:51

Well done Tuesday fasters and minis!

Your day sounds so good BCF, although wearing a mask while having a hair cut does sound like a challenge.

Great day for a BBQ MrD. I've dumped all bread products from our BBQs now; I do salads, pita bread and corn on the cob as accompaniments instead. No complaints to management yet received!

I only walked about 4Km with the dog this morning and was hot and sweaty by the end so well done on achieving a 6km run today blossom

I was feeling think this morning so decided to hop on the scales - 0.8Kg down. Slowly but surely going the right way Smile

Good luck today Diet and other Wednesday fasters Brew

Waspie · 20/05/2020 12:52

"feeling think" should have read "feeling thin" D'oh Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2020 13:40

Congratulations on your SV, Waspie
Good progress and a decent amount of healthy exercise too.

I'd call that an SV, emcla
So near to the milestone of the 8 stone somethings

9 stone is probably your "set point" the weight you stayed at / above for several years; hence your body resists going below it, but fasting & patience can nail that

Oh, not I've got BBQ envy, MrD
but it's so messy & smelly when I start setting fire to things Grin

Good luck today, chic and any other fasters

That's a sensible NFD plan, homeschool

Well done on your FD, Spatchcock
2nd FD of the week already under your belt

Well done too on your mini, Blossom
After the initial loss, you'll probably settle down to an average 1lb weekly loss - if you are sensible on FDs, especially wrt alcohol

Your run makes me sweaty just thinking about it

  • v hot & sunny here; weather report keeps saying 23C the last few days, but benches are scorching and it feels nearer 30C

I've spin and advanced lifting this evening,
but with places limited by social distancing, there is a 60 minute limit, so if someone else wants to lift, I'll have to go home and do free weights tomorrow on my own instead

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2020 13:43

Good luck today, gin That's a good safe FD menu

I hope you can train your OH not to bring home choc goodies on FDs, or to eat them himself before he gets home Grin

If not, chant the 5:2 FD mantra:
"I can have it tomorrow"

  • and hide your share from any choc burglars.
OP posts:
harriethoyle · 20/05/2020 18:33

Managed the b2b. Probably 700/day if I'm accurate but honest to God I'm finding this so hard without the structure of work! Woke at 2.30am so hungry I almost fridge burgled but managed to get back to sleep Grin

DietChic · 20/05/2020 18:52

Kitchen closed - a bit too early for my liking but never mind - on 522.

I might do my next FD on Saturday - just pondering the ease of it.

Well done Harriet - a B2B would kill me off I think. I have to think of what I can have tomorrow to get me through FDs at the moment!

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2020 21:42

Well done on your b2b, Harriet
You nailed it

Well done, Chic
I've been 5:2ing for several years (maintenance) and I can only manage a mini FD b2b, so up to 1000 cals - not that impressive !

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 20/05/2020 22:01

Accidental FD (sort of) today. Skipped breakfast, had a sausage bap for lunch and spent most of the day juggling working from home and refereeing the DC in the garden. They had a picnic tea. By the time I finished pottering about it was time to put them to bed. No point eating dinner now!

My DH is working abroad, so we chat via FaceTime most days. It’s a lovely reminder that I have a face like a satellite dish! For now, anyway...

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2020 22:16

Well done on a serendipitous FD, Maz

OP posts:
spatchcock · 21/05/2020 01:27

@harriethoyle I'm also finding it difficult being at home (only in the office one day this week).

Like @homeschoolhell I'm not feeling too hungry the day after a FD either and am taking advantage of that.

It's a NFD here and I've had my big salad (pumpkin, feta, sundried tomato and lots of lettuce from the garden) followed by berries and greek yogurt.

Good luck any Friday fasters!

devildeepbluesea · 21/05/2020 06:55

Morning everyone, well done to everyone who fasted yesterday. FD for me today and DD is coming back from her dad's. I find it harder to fast with her around but I have a trump card up my sleeve today. Chicken and veg skewers, which went down a storm last week and work out at around 300kcals for 3 each! As well as that I might go for a couple of eggs, my standard FD meal.

So planning a dog walk shortly, followed by a run and then pump. Better get a move on really.

OohMrDarcy · 21/05/2020 07:56

Morning all

Checking in for my Thursday FD here. Soup and a stir fry for me today.

Bbq was delicious yesterday and far lighter than normal so really enjoyed it. Kids did too so hopefully less boring ones on the horizon.

moonlight1705 · 21/05/2020 07:59

Also checking in for a FD today, going to do egg salad for lunch and veg curry for dinner.

Good luck too devil and mrd

homeschoolhell · 21/05/2020 09:17

Well done harriet diet maz
Dh came back from the shops with a bottle of white wine and as it was so nice we ended up sharing it in the garden, so food great yesterday but not so great with booze! Nfd again today but there will be no wine 😁

Good luck mrd devil and everyone else fasting today

emcla · 21/05/2020 10:32

Good luck today devil, mrd and moon.

harriethoyle · 21/05/2020 10:36

@BigChocFrenzy can you remind me why we don't snack? I'm like the very hungry Caterpillar this morning and was contemplating elevenses but I remember there's a reason we don't do it...

harriethoyle · 21/05/2020 10:36

@homeschoolhell we did the same yesterday. Told the kids we were going for a walk and put a bottle of rioja in the backpack Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2020 10:39

Good luck today, Devil, MrD, Moonlight and anyone else joining the Thursday fasting troop

That's a gorgeous salad, Spatchcock
I'm planning salad with salmon strips for supper at another outdoor restaurant here

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2020 10:42

For Harriet: 🙂

Why we shouldn't snack

Mosely and most other fasting experts recommend no snacking between meals

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, to increase profits.
They also increased waistlines.

Even "healthy" snacks - like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, any treats - lattes, alcohol, crisps, biscuits, cake etc - and even fruit, nuts, yoghurt etc should only be as part of a meal.

Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 3-4 hrs away from a meal.

Snacks are ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - but this applies to only a few in the West

Snacking has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution

  • almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day with snacks is now insulin-dominant (graph 2) instead of fasting-dominant (graph 1), see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals
5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2020 10:58

Harriet If you often feel hungry mid-morning, there are 2 useful tactics:

  1. Just have black coffee for breakfast and either fast until lunch (classic 16:8)
    or rearrange mealtimes to be at say 11 am, 3pm, 7pm

  2. Have a high protein breakfast with no sugary junk:

    No Danish pastries, poptarts ...

    No fruit juice, dried fruit, jam, marmalade
    and no more than 1 portion fruit at breakfast - berries are a good choice - or keep fruit for pud after lunch

    Swap breakfast cereals (nearly all sugary) for porridge

    Swap white toast for 100% wholegrain / rye and no more than 2 slices - have with protein not sweet toppings

    Eat breakfast - don't drink it:
    Some smoothies may have healthy ingredients, but often don't keep you full for long

    Good choices to keep full:
    veg omelette or eggs, bacon, tomato & mushrooms
    porridge with nuts & chia seeds
    tinned sardines / smoked salmon & Philly / pnut butter (thinly spread) on 100% wholegrain / rye toast

Also of course, drink water - helps you feel full

OP posts:
harriethoyle · 21/05/2020 11:15

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy I knew there was some science behind it..! Am going to keep chugging black coffee and try to get through to 12-ish lunch... xx

Waspie · 21/05/2020 12:05

Checking in late with today's fasters!

Well done on your B2B harriet and your FDs Diet, Maz and Spatchock

Usual FD menu here of black coffee for breakfast, chicken noodle soup for lunch and mushroom omelette and salad for dinner.

moonlight1705 · 21/05/2020 12:39

I have just made the most delicious egg salad with green beans, baby potato and an oil free dressing l. Feeling rather full which is good on a FD for me.