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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 88: Anyone trying to pull you down is beneath you - come join our friendly & knowledgeable group to BOOST you up to goal

979 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2019 00:06

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
aberjenagain · 05/12/2019 13:16

Thanks all - had a small piece of rocky road with my breakfast Blush

whattodo my fall back easy fd option is eggs - omelette, scrambled, poached, whatever, with other bits on the side to make up the cals to whatever I’m aiming for (eg cheese, smoked salmon, bit of sauteed onion, spinach)

Another easy one is teriyaki salmon - 1 salmon fillet, marinated in 1.5 tbsp soy sauce and 1.5 tbsp mirin for at least 30 min (ideally get it ready in the morning). Pan fry with a little bit of oil for about 6 mins total, turning a couple of times, and serve with lots of veg.

aberjenagain · 05/12/2019 13:28

Also, no snacking has made a huge difference for me. My tdee is only about 1500, so snacks easily tip me over, and now that I’ve got into the no snack habit I find it easy to stick to (for the most part). I remember reading about a psychology tip (poss on here!) that rather than saying ‘im trying not to snack’ you say ‘i don’t eat snacks’. Ie a definitive statement vs an aspiration. Meant to make new habits easier to stick to.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2019 13:32

What If you like something all ready to nuke in the MW, then I suggest batch cooking and splitting into portions any of these you fancy:

Some of the FD Recipe links from the OP
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals , Good2Know

Mostly 200-300 cals, so if you prefer to have just one meal, double portions make a filling supper

This BBC 5:2 Chickpea, tomato & spinach curry gives a big portion for the cals and freezes well

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2019 13:33

Good psychological tip, aber 👍

OP posts:
Whattodowithaminute · 05/12/2019 13:53

Oh thanks bigchoc I will give that chickpea recipe a go. I normally bath cook veg and bean soup for the freezer but didn’t have any in stock and took that as an easy way out. Eggs are a really good option too aber they are not something I think of often-my default is often bread and carbs generally...
we have salmon tonight which I was just going to poach but then teriyaki sounds much more interesting! Thanks all!

OohMrDarcy · 05/12/2019 16:11

Kitchen closed on around 530 tops... probably closer to 500. Super delicious stir fry had.

Everyone else doing ok?

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2019 16:30

Well done, MrD
Stir fries are quick and ace

NFD. It's been a horrid cold & miserable pea-souper all day, smells yuk too
No Rhein walk, as I can barely see 3 meters, so just my cycle commute to work

I'm in my fav Rhein cafe, intending to unwind ....
An elderly woman here is having a big birthday with about 30 family members- and in that half of the cafe, they have an accordion band with male choir all dressed up in traditional leather costume, winter version, so no shorts Sad

They are very loud
And going on forever ! Grin
Still, lucky lady to have such a big family celebration

OP posts:
Whattodowithaminute · 05/12/2019 17:49

Kitchen closed (following tasty teriyaki salmon with pak Choi!) on 640. Will battle the children to bed then have a lovely bath. Headache improved post marmite but it was pretty awful-have ordered bovril to see if that’s better!!

Well done MrD sounds like a good day! 🤞for the SV tomorrow!!

BCF hope the cafe enjoyment wasn’t hampered too much by the party (and lack of shorts Blush)

How are you doing moonlight and Glasgow?

moonlight1705 · 05/12/2019 18:05

Not so wonderful today but still ended up with 790 so massive drop on normal eating.

Will have an excellent NFD tomorrow with no snacks but plenty of good things to eat.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2019 18:31

Well done, what and good luck tomorrow

The choir & accordionists were all wearing trousers
Thankfully

  • As I left, I saw they were about the same age as the birthday girl, i.e. 80, but very smart & sprightly
It was an interesting loud cultural experience, very traditional music & costume

That's OK, moonlight still within the 800 for an upper limit FD and a big calorie deficit
A sensible Friday enjoying good food will round off the week nicely for you .... with or without accordion-players

No snacks ever !
(A protein, veg & carb minimeal like Glasgow's is fine on NFDs to avoid a very long time between meals )

OP posts:
Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 05/12/2019 19:28

Rhein cafe?! Do you live in Germany? Lucky person...

I had a massive wave of nausea this afternoon and had to eat an apple and then I felt fine. A still needed dinner at 1700 (wasn’t a long day at work).

My work Xmas might put tomorrow so will probably eat a gazillion calories!

So impressed by the no snacks ever etc. Ummmmm do you never meet a friend for coffee and cake? My way round this is a coffee and a little dark chocolate. Or a tiny bit of the kids’ cake. Life’s little pleasures....!

EssentialHummus · 05/12/2019 19:35

bigchoc is a one-woman campaign for the joys of living in Europe Grin. I am always jealous reading about your Rhine walks etc!

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 05/12/2019 19:36

Interesting as it’s on the cards for our summer holiday....

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2019 19:46

Hummus I hadn't realised my Rhine reports were enticing Grin
I miss British roast dinners though - and no, I cba to cook one myself

glasgow I live in a serviced apartment on a bank of the Rhine
In the morning, i look down over the sunny Rhine, go downstairs and start walking / cycling along the river
That was the aim of moving here, to enjoy lovely walks most days, as I won't walk somewhere boring

When it's a horrid cold smelly peasouper like today, I just want to stay indoors - but ....
it is 50 days until I retire, which is about 1200 hours or 72,000 minutes !

"do you never meet a friend for coffee and cake?"

I can usually arrange it to be a mealtime, so we have an actual meal
If it has to between meals, then I just have the coffee, because i'm really there for the company

I never snack
I grew up before snacking became a thing, so once I read the research, I found it very easy to stop.

OP posts:
Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 05/12/2019 19:54

You retire in 50 days and you live in west Germany and you never snack?!!! Who the heck are you!! Grin

It sounds divine. I’m scotland so it’s been grey here today too.

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 05/12/2019 19:56

I lived in the Netherlands for a time and we have connections to north Germany. It’s a way of life I could cope with!

But we are very settled with family/friends so will not do it. Plus Scotland is weird. Utterly awful weather but it’s my home and I love it.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2019 20:11

"but it’s my home and I love it."

Then it's where you belong

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2019 20:14

I had considered retiring to a quiet corner of Scotland, as gorgeous scenery on the telly - I've never once been there Blush
However, the weather
And the short days ....

OP posts:
Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 05/12/2019 21:07

Yep let’s have this discussion again in March when it’s still sleety and grey here and the SAD has set in and no amount of 5:2 can stop the chocolate addiction to lift the spirits Grin

moonlight1705 · 05/12/2019 23:18

My DSis lives in Japan and has done for four years, now that really is a completely different way of life. I lost so much weight over there when visiting as the culture wasn't snacky at all but filled up on the most amazing food.

Of course the downside was I stuck out like a sore thumb being twice the size of anyone else there.

OohMrDarcy · 06/12/2019 07:09

Morning all

Weighed in this morning at 13st 10.2 so I have movement once more! That is 1.2lb down for the week taking my total to 4st 2.2lb 🎉

And I had a dominoes at the weekend! Partially because sometimes I've seen a feast can get plateaus moving sometimes and partially in 'fuck it' mode.

Loving these tales of living all over the place. I lived in Germany when young and what I remember I adored. Really want to visit with my kids one day

Whattodowithaminute · 06/12/2019 07:26

Well done MrD great to see that SV for you-any no snack reward planned?!!

Weighed in at 11st 12 this morning so the scales are the same as they were two weeks ago but I have lost all of the extra (4lb Blush) I had gained during my week off... I feel motivated and ready for next week now so bring it on to the losses....

OohMrDarcy · 06/12/2019 07:31

Just weighed again before my shower and bleary eyes read it wrong. It is actually 13st 9.8lb which takes my weekly loss to 1.6lb 🎉

No rewards this week whattodo, will get another when I get down to 13st 7

Well done on maintaining over those two weeks!

EssentialHummus · 06/12/2019 09:43

Well done what and mrd!

Fillybuster · 06/12/2019 11:07

Wow, well done both What and MrD!!

Loving the comparisons between Scotland and Germany - both sound pretty good compared with cold, grey, soggy London right now! To give you an idea of how bad it it - I usually go horse riding on Fridays (its the highlight my week) but actually couldn’t face it today....

Whattodo - I’ve started batch cooking a few of the bbc 500 recipes (theres a great chickpea and butternut squash tagine too) and keep them labelled up in the freezer. Following some of MrDs posts about how she serves herself the same as the rest of family, but without the extras, I also put a bunch of my normal batch cooked recipes like veg chilli, for example, through MFP in detail last time I made them (once I found the add recipe function!) and realised that quite a few of my normal recipes are super low cal too....as long as I don’t load them up with all the rice, guacamole, wraps, salsa, cheese and sour cream that I usually serve alongside Grin! So alongside always having a few salmon portions in the freezer, which defrost really fast, and eggs, I’ve usually got a good range of choices these days. That said, when I’m hungry, my default setting is to want carbs - I’m getting better at eating something sensible first and then checking in to see if I still need them. 9/10 I’m fine once I’ve eaten!