5:2 Thread number 88: Anyone trying to pull you down is beneath you - come join our friendly & knowledgeable group to BOOST you up to goal

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Checking in for FD today, not that well planned as have had a friend here for lunch and have an event to go to tonight. Had planned for b2b anyway so will hopefully come in at 650 today which will be ok I suppose. Good luck all other Wednesday fasters...

Oops, fell off the thread.

Really really tough FD on Monday but made it through in the end - gosh it’s hard when it’s cold and dark!!

SV alert: scales said 9.7.6 yesterday morning (post FD) and (drum roll) again today!!!

Fasting today. Two gym classes this evening (30 minute Pump and a HIIT 45 minute LBT session) and then a sausage and butter bean stew for supper. Can’t wait!

Huge apologies for an entirely self centred post....off to catch up on everyone’s news from the past 5 days. Hope you’re all doing well?!

Two gym classes on a FD? Respect!

Congratulations on your SV, filly
Sounds an excellent FD

Good luck,what

Has anyone tried 4:3?

Many people have tried 4:3 over the years
It gives quicker loss so long as you don't compensate by eating more on NFDs - some people do

I recommend people reserve it either to bust a plateau, or when they have an important event coming up within a couple of months
It can also work well longterm if you have a lot to lose, but only if you are calm & disciplined

Some people who have difficulties controlling NFDs turn to 4:3 in desperation, but if it doesn't retrain NFD habits then it's only a short term help

Main issue is that instead of 2 "diet" days and 5 "normal eating", 3 diet days and only 4 normal ones makes it too much like a diet instead of a WOL that changes longterm habits
People are more likely to crash out of it, because it can feel a grind and make it difficult to fit in ordinary life

Thanks - you know your stuff!!

I seem to do well with rules.... I’m wondering if I should do 5:2 and then an extra day of no snacks. I know that sounds daft as my snacks are generally “healthy” like dark chocolate but I eat too much!

We and Mosely & other fasting experts - say No snacks ever, not on FDs, not on NFDs,
not on holiday either (or the habit isn't broken)

Eat meals, nothing between

Why we shouldn't snack

Mosely and most other fasting experts recommend no snacking between meals

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, to increase profits.
They also increased waistlines.

Even "healthy" snacks - like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, have any treats - lattes, alcohol, crisps, biscuits, even fruit - as part of a meal.

^Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 3-4 hrs away from a meal.

Snacks are ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - but this applies to only a few in the West

Snacking has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution

• almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

^Each 24 hour day is now insulin-dominant (graph 2) instead of

• as for most of our history - fasting-dominant (graph 1), graphs from fasting expert & kidney / T2 specialist Dr Jason Fung:^

If anyone is desperate to munch, while retraining habits, then keep prepped some low cal raw veg
e.g. celery / carrot / cucumber / broccoli

The calories in even a large portion of raw veg won't raise insulin noticeably
BUT no dip, oil or sauce with it

Another late check in, done on 656. Nsv in that I went for coffee with my friend and she bought us both cake and I’ve saved mine for tomorrow, despite it being on my desk all day and me not leaving until 9.30 after no food all day (rubbish day).

Well done on your Sv filly that’s fantastic

And congrats on the fd whattodo!

Well done, aber and an impressive FD cake NSV
That sounds a long tough work day

Thanks choc really appreciate your advice.

I am ok not snacking in the morning. But at work, by 3pm, especially if I have worked out I am ravenous and then feel ill. My blood sugar drops: I suspect this is from years of snacking but I am unable to break it. I don’t get home some days until 1830 so it’s 6 hours from dinner. Rather than have two dinners I have a light snack about 1500. But you use advice is sound. I should aim for raw veg and maybe some marmite or bone broth and stop....

That’s a filly-style late check-in, Aber . Well done on your FD and super well done (seriously, that’s an SV level-up achievement right there!) on not touching your cake all day Enjoy it tomorrow!!

Glasgow, the not ever snacking thing is really really hard, maybe the hardest adjustment I’ve had to make, but it makes an enormous difference both to your calorie intake on NFDs and also to how you go about meal planning for them. I’m someone who finds fasting much easier than having consistently healthy balanced NFDs, and one of my discoveries is that by not snacking I end up being much more thoughtful about my meals. I’ve had loads of dips so far on this journey (more dips than losses....and I’m sure more to come) and they generally happen when I don’t eat proper meals on a NFD, due to time pressures or poor planning, then end up reaching for a high cal or high sugar snack - before you know it, you’ve completely lost track of what you’re eating and suddenly the lbs pile back on again. Well, maybe that’s just me but not snacking does seem to stop it happening!

Checking out on approx 550. Two gym classes was really tough - my legs were absolutely shaking in the second session, especially since I upped my weights during squats and deadlifts in pump first. Felt great afterwards though - I love training on FDs as I find it helps me keep energy levels up and, a bit counter intuitively, decreases my appetite for my evening meal. Also, it keeps me super focussed on calories, as I really don’t want to waste the effort

Impressive stuff....

Snacking is ingrained isn’t it.... i think I will start by keeping my afternoon snack and keep it healthful. Once I’m hungry it’s too late and I then gorge!!!!

I’m going to try 4:3 as an alternate day fast but one of them closer to 1200 (which is very low for me!) meaning zero rubbish...but I can still no heavy exercise that day.

Morning all

Checking in for Thursday FD today - no Friday this week as xmas lunch meeting tomorrow. Stir fry for dinner later, can't wait

Completely agree with Filly about snacking, it is easier to do much better on NFD without it!

Aber - amazing NSV there, revel and enjoy that cake today!

Much respect to you aber for cake deferral I hope you enjoy it today! Woke with a headache so I’ve had some scrambled egg to see if that stops it, b2b today, good luck all other fellow fasters today!

Also having a FD today although it might be slightly higher as I've had to make a couscous salad for lunch instead of soup as planned.

Well done aber on resisting the cake temptation.

Snacking is one of the biggest evils I've ever encountered, if I am busy then its so easy not to snack but if I'm just sitting on the computer typing then it's all I can think about. How do you combat little evil snacky thoughts?

Joining you fasters today!

I have no idea how to break the snack habit other than to only have one

Well done on your FD and great exercise yesterday filly
I suggest a light exercise / recovery day today, e.g. a brisk walk / ride outside

Good luck, MrD, what, moonlight and any other Thursday fasters

Don't stress about it, glasgow the optimum eating schedule is very individual
Daily work routine and varying stability of blood sugar levels means that the optimum number of "eating occasions" / meals varies per person between 2 and 4

WIth such a long gap between lunch & supper, I'd suggest a "minimeal" designed to stabilise your blood sugar & boost nutrients, rather than a snack,
i.e. protein, veg, a small portion carbs
e.g. a small veg & chicken / egg / salmon / tuna open sandwich (= only bread 1 side) made with 1 slice 100% rye bread
Keep the dark choc for your evening pud

If this is more cals than your current snack, then slightly reduce the size of supper

btw, why do you want to do 4:3 ?
iirc, you are fasting more for health than weight loss

In your case, I'd suggest:

• Keep to 5:2
  Think longterm, be patient and use the 5 NFDs to retrain habits for longterm health & weight maintenance

• Do daily 12:12
  That means eating within at most a 12-hour window, e.g. start at 8am, finish by 8pm
  Fasting expert recommend this, because research indicates that - at least once out of the weight loss phase - a 10 to 12 hours window is better for longterm health, especially for women, than a shorter time of only 8 hours.

• See if you can move to b2b, which allows 650 cals per day, or 500 followed by 800
  Consecutive days fasting is optimal for health factors

• Work on 3 high-nutrient meals and minimeal, as plan above

Thanks - this should be your job!!

I was doing it for health until I saw I had 27 per cent body fat. . I use 90 per cent dark chocolate as a “treat” in the afternoon to avoid the awful temptations of constant cake and sweets. It works but is very much a lesser of evils.

Like your mini meal suggestion. When I do this, I can easily manage a healthy NFD.

Hasn’t heard of B2B and like the idea. I did Prolon which introduced me to all this and it was 800 then 4 days of 600 and I loved it.

(Have done 14:10 for years and it’s great but as I have ages and kept up my snacking habits, I was gaining tummy weight. Could never get above 14 hours without feeling ill but do morning exercise)

Hope you’re all doing ok moonlight, MrD and Glasgow I cant shift the headache but I don’t feel hungry. Going to try the marmite to see if that helps...

Any recommendations for easy freezer/cupboard low calorie back ups for FD? I’ve realised if I have an easy/prepared option I’m happy to fast but if don’t have anything available I’m not very good and committing to the FD/WOL generally.

If you can do the 5-day Prolon, you can almost certainly do b2b

DId you do their (expensive !) packaged version with excl vegan / veg ?
It's v tough and not recommended alongside a vigorous training program, as you can feel very weak in the later days,
so maybe the online omnivore version with more protein is more suitable for you

Our form of b2b is based on Dr Michelle Harvie's research and human trials funded by various UK cancer charities
She was comparing a standard CR (daily calorie reduction) diet to her 5:2, which is 650 low carb cals per consecutive day, with a Mediteranean diet the other 5 days

Her diet showed better results for both fat loss and health indicators than standard CR
However, many people found it too tough and restrictive

So our b2b version here just takes the consecutive FDs with the increased calorie allowance, no specs about food type
I've recommended a further option in which FD1 is 500 cals and FD2 is 800, the logic of a higher FD2 allowance being that you start FD2 already fasted

It also has the advantage that you can decide after FD1 if you'll just stick with a single, or continue with the b2b

Harvie's b2b is really the original 5:2, which came before Mosely, but his book came out first - and he is a far better author

What I recommend having the teasp Marmite as a regular precaution against FD headaches, mid-morning and / or mid-afternoon
However, it can also help when taken once a headache has begun

Drink plenty of water afterwards, as the lack can also be a cause - you need more water on FDs, because you generally obtain less moisture from the lower food volume

What also helps in my experience is to clean your teeth - maybe the pressure of the brush on certain areas ?

if you can, a brisk walk outside - in dry weather - helps too