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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 88: Anyone trying to pull you down is beneath you - come join our friendly & knowledgeable group to BOOST you up to goal

979 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2019 00:06

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Gruntysaurus · 22/01/2020 15:49

Hi all. Been a longtime lurker. Lost about a stone and a half on the 5:2 last year but almost put it all back on again Blush

Tried to restart a few times so far but caved in so I thought if I joined this thread it might give me a bit of encouragement!

Got two dogs and a toddler to help me keep active. Just got to keep all the chocolate in a locked cupboard maybe Wink

Thinking of doing fasts on Mondays and Thursdays

BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2020 16:21

Welcome, grunty 🙂 and good luck

As you might gather from my username, I've had my own issues with chocolate ! Wink
I eventually 2:5ed it, i.e. only allowed myself choc or sweet treats on 2 NFDs per week and then only a sensible portion
That worked and now I can eat it occasionally and moderately

Congratulations on your SV, aber
That 9 st target looks very doable

and congratulations too, inthethick - the loss sounds genuine enough
Some may be retained water, but this is also useful to get rid of, as water retention can lead to high BP

re your FDs, sounds a good idea from next week to plan a regular Monday FD, so plan your menu at the WE
For this week, if you absolutely can't manage tomorrow, then have a Friday FD and be extra sensible this WE
then plan Monday and one other FD each week

OP posts:
Whattodowithaminute · 22/01/2020 16:23

Well done aber great ongoing loss from you.
Hope today is going ok for you lania and any other Wednesday fasters.

@aberjenagain I’ve started on Agnus castus too in the last year for mood swings-my GP recommended a trial of antidepressants but I had awful side effects so stopped....

Welcome grunty I’m normally a Monday/Thursday faster which has worked well for me so far. This week I think I need an additional calorie light day ready for an evening out on Friday and have friends for dinner on Saturday... DH away next week though so can do Sunday/Monday/Wednesday or a b2b...

Gruntysaurus · 22/01/2020 17:07

Thanks! @BigChocFrenzy I might do two days a week for sweet treats! Instead of blocking them out completely. Good idea.

Whattodowithaminute you can keep an eye on me to make sure I'm fasting and not scoffing on Mondays and Thursdays 🤣

Laniakea · 22/01/2020 18:45

497 ... about to have my mug of bouillon to finish the day ... exciting!

Hope all the other faster got on okay :)

Ohyesiam · 22/01/2020 19:55

BigChocFrenzy

Thanks so much for your response, really really helpful.
I think I will try the med diet and 800 cal fast days for the moment because that way I cut out all my trigger foods. However if I keep that up for too long I will just go back to my trigger foods and overeat. Sigh , I have so had enough of my complex relationship to foodBlush.

Remember, Mosely says there is no allowance on FDs for exercise.

Are you saying we should eat the calorie deficit on fast days?( ever hopeful!)

BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2020 20:42

"Are you saying we should eat the calorie deficit on fast days?( ever hopeful!)"

Sorry, oh Grin but no
Mosely says in his books - and other fasting experts agree - that the main health benefits of fasting
such as autophagy (replacement of old / damaged cells)
only come from the sharply reduced calorie intake
It doesn't work the same way if you try to create the calorie deficit by increasing exerecise instead

So, on FDs no matter how much exercise you do, you only have your 500 calories (or 800 if the higher calorie FDs work for you)

Exercise calories are allowed for on NFDs via TDEE, as these days are supposed to be "maintenance days"
If you like to know roughly how many calories your body burns, then you can calculate your TDEE with Mosely's TDEE Calc

If you are a regular exerciser, then Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think,
because most people significantly OVER-estimate exercise calories.

I recommend you do NOT use the TDEE / calories calc in mfp or fitbit etc, because exercise calculators and gadgets often overestimate the extra calories by quite a lot.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2020 20:54

Well done on your FD, lania
Right on the nose of 500; you've definitely returned to the fasting swing.

How are the other Wednesday fasters doing ?

what, grunty are now officially fasting buddies Grin

  • the combination of Mon+Thur FDs is the most popular one, so you probably have other buddies too

Freezing frosty day here, with peasouper fog, so no Rhine walk
Instead I did evening spin class 🚴🏼‍♀️ followed by advanced weight-lifting 🏋🏽‍♀️
< eases herself back on the chaise longue & groans 😂 >

I invited someone from the class to my retirement Pizza bash on Friday, because she works in another department, but we never actually see each other at work

I wondered at the start of the class if we'd recognise each with our clothes on
then after the evil weightlifting trainer had finished with us all, I said we'd easily recognise each other ........
we'd be the two women limping along painfully , holding our backs ! 😂

OP posts:
Ohyesiam · 22/01/2020 21:34

BigChocFrenzy

Thanks again, you have very impressive knowledge levelsSmile.
Yes I thought that was too good to be true!

Anyway, closing the kitchen on 1468 calories of low carb food, Consumed on an 8 hour window.

I’m happy with that for a nfd, especially as i had to do my tax return!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/01/2020 21:59

Sounds a good healthy NFD

Do eat up to your full TDEE if you feel hungry

  • what makes this WOE sustainable over the weeks is that you only "diet" on the 2 FDs
However, if you feel satisfied, then stop eating
OP posts:
SydneyCarton · 22/01/2020 22:28

Finished on 463, quite low for me but have been flying solo for bedtime where everyone was tired, most of us were crying and by the time all three children were asleep it was nearly half eight and I needed something quickly. Green salad with dressing and two hard boiled eggs with a blob of garlic mayonnaise. Weigh in tomorrow and hoping to be 10 st 1 lb and change. Well done to the other Wednesday fasters Flowers

EssentialHummus · 23/01/2020 07:18

Well done sydney, sounds a very tough evening. I’m checking in for a Thursday FD here - anyone else?

SydneyCarton · 23/01/2020 07:47

Hmm. 10:2:6, so a gain of 1/4 pound! Not disastrous at all, but I was hoping for at least 1/2 pound off. Must have been more indulgent at the weekend than I thought Blush. Onwards and upwards, or should that be downwards 🤔

Have a good FD Hummus and the Thursday crew

Whattodowithaminute · 23/01/2020 08:22

Well done sydney checking in for a Thursday FD with you hummus.... good luck all

Whattodowithaminute · 23/01/2020 08:23

Oh sorry sydney hadn’t seen your update-sure that gain is just an, err, movement or something. Little blip will be easily resolved, stay positive

Laniakea · 23/01/2020 08:44

that's annoying Sydney ... just a tiny blip though :)

Good luck with the fd Hummus - anyone else?

NFD here - I did 1500 on Monday (current TDEE for sedentary, exercise level below what I think I am - I do 15-17000 steps a day but am still mega cautious about anything strenuous because of my hip), two fast days (500) & planning 1500 today. Rest of the week will probably be TDEE at goal (1200) or another fd & 1500 ... will see how I feel.That should give me enough deficit to lose a pound but I won't weigh for a few weeks anyway (still scale-averse!)

Laniakea · 23/01/2020 08:45

typo there - 1400 for TDEE at goal not 1200

moonlight1705 · 23/01/2020 09:11

Does anyone else find sometimes your body just plateaus to re-set it self at a new lower weight? Perhaps that is what is happening sydney but keep going for this coming week.

I'm on a FD today - I find it so much easier in the mornings than the afternoon so must keep an eye on my water drinking at that point and drink more.

80skid · 23/01/2020 09:54

Good morning everyone. FD for me today. I can't believe I've only been on this for 2 weeks, it feels natural and automatic already Grin. That said, I am still not ready to weigh myself, I don't think I could cope with the self loathing. Im thinking I'll weigh in at Easter unless I desperately need to before then. I am occasionally using the next hole on my belt already, but made the mistake of trying on a pair of too small jeans this morning. Far too soon. But on the upside, looking in the wardrobe (I rarely use the wardrobe, it's full of too small clothes - I just ram my fat clothes in a drawer) I will hopefully have a lovely summer with lots of lovely things to wear.
Have a lovely day all. I'm hoping for a swim at lunchtime, then it's karate later

Gruntysaurus · 23/01/2020 10:05

Fast day here. Just done a bit of pilates from a dvd I bought eons ago that I've never used Blush Toddler joined in!

badger82 · 23/01/2020 10:13

Hi Thursday fasters. Black coffee and water on the go. Off to coach a lady with her young horse. Going to try to push through until dinner tonight as I find once I start eating it's game over.
Let's do this!

Whattodowithaminute · 23/01/2020 11:13

badger I’m waiting to eat until dinner tonight but have exercise session at 8 so won’t eat until gone 9... too late not sure I’ll manage it!!

SydneyCarton · 23/01/2020 11:15

Thanks lania, moonlight, what, I’m sure it’s just a plateau. I’ve lost pretty consistently since the start of November (apart from Christmas Grin, but even that came off quite easily) so I should expect a bit of slowing down. My original goal was 10:2 by the end of January so I’m still okay for that. And an NSV; my “thin” jeans from Gap, which were snug before Christmas are now fitting much better. Have a great day everyone Smile

Ohyesiam · 23/01/2020 11:53

@80skid
Not weighing till easter sounds like a good plan for you.
Sorry to hear about the self loathing, I know exactly what you mean ( as do many other I’m sure). For me this is a game of damage limitation in terms of self loathing and self sabotage.
On the other hand I’m weighing lots at the moment because I’ve only just (re) started, so I’m getting a woosh. I use an app called Happy Scale which gives the average trend ( mathematically accurate, not just what you want to hear!) so that the disheartening hormonal blips are put into perspective. It also gives continual micro goals, so it’s very encouraging. of to supper at a friends later, she is a chef! Shock

Have a good day everyone x

Laniakea · 23/01/2020 13:01

80skid I don't weigh myself very often - every couple of months or so. I'm not planning to weigh again until my birthday at the end of February. TBH I'm almost phobic about the scales!

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