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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 88: Anyone trying to pull you down is beneath you - come join our friendly & knowledgeable group to BOOST you up to goal

979 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2019 00:06

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
moonlight1705 · 21/01/2020 14:21

I've had my soup and tea in the effort to keep warm and now comes the hard part for me - not snacking in the afternoon.

I am going to adopt one of your mantras 80skid and say 'I am making healthy choices today' and not ruin a perfectly good FD by looking around for food.

Good luck aber nose and badger

BigChocFrenzy · 21/01/2020 15:06

"When I am tempted by the ridiculously glut of treats at work"

aber Did everyone wash their hands after the toilet or blowing their nose ?
We have a 5:2 mantra to help avoid work "treats" Grin

"Communal food has poo crumbs & snot smears !" 💩

and of course, those treats are normally between meals,
i.e. they are snacks - which we never have:

"Little pickers need bigger knickers"

OP posts:
Whattodowithaminute · 21/01/2020 15:18

nose I’ve noticed a massive hormonal drive to my eating too-some weeks I’m ravenous, others I (relatively!) breeze through. What I’ve noticed is that if I can maintain during the difficult weeks then the weight comes off easily during the other weeks-so overall it’s still going in the right direction.

noseovertail · 21/01/2020 17:04

what its bloody tough isn't it... cant sodding wait until all this is over!

moon stay focused, you have come so far today you dont want to spoil it all now and have to do another fd from scratch. Another mantra is 'I can have it tomorrow' and whatever it is that you are fancying now, have as part of a meal tomorrow Smile

noseovertail · 21/01/2020 19:39

Fd done on 532cals Smile cup of tea later. Hows everyone else getting on

Ohyesiam · 21/01/2020 19:51

Hello! I’m new. Smile

I was going to attempt the fast 800 , but when I read a bit about it I saw the great god Michael Mosley doesn’t recommenced you repeat it, as it can damage your metabolism.

So ( with some relief) I had a look at 5:2 and was surprised to see it had changed to 800 cal of low carb ( basically blood sugar/fast diet) on fast days and unlimited calorie “ Mediterranean diet” the other 5 days.

Has anyone on here done this, or are people sticking with the original 500 cal, “ normal but sensible” the rest of the time? ( if I could do normal and sensible, I wouldn’t need to lose weightConfused. )

MazDazzle · 21/01/2020 19:54

Well I’ve FINALLY cracked my first fast day in about a month! Blush

Feels good to be back and it’ll feel even better when I can wear my jeans comfortably! Grin

Ohyesiam · 21/01/2020 19:55

Ps fasted today and it felt great, as I’ve been trying to reel myself in since Christmas excesses.
I’m on about 900 cals though as I misread MFP ... but I did do a full on Body Tone class.

aberjenagain · 21/01/2020 19:58

bcf Grin I know, but there are some v talented bakers in our office, and the office manager has a predilection for M&S goodies. Plus we do a lot of travel and people bring lovely things back with them. So I am a bit ‘lalalala’ fingers in ears about poo crumbs. But I have stopped snacking on these things - I’ll have something with my lunch or not at all, which is BIG step forward.

Fd done on about 700, and feeling good Smile

Well done nose

Hope you’re getting on okay badger and moonlight

aberjenagain · 21/01/2020 20:00

Welcome ohyes, and well done to you and maz for your FDs Smile

Laniakea · 21/01/2020 21:04

495 ... it was tough going, I fecking hate the cold & am totally knackered.

Was half thinking about a b2b to get it over with but a now fantasising about hot food tomorrow!

noseovertail · 21/01/2020 21:51

Welcome ohyes I've only ever done 5:2 with 500cal fds but I usually mostly track my nfds also as I would just overeat otherwise, I cant be trusted to be sensible! Blush well done on getting through today, why dont you try 800fds for a little while and work towards 500?

Fab work daz it feels good to be back in control eh?

Well done aber and laniakea, why dont you see how you feel when you wake up tomorrow laniakea ?

Early night for me, nfd tomorrow and Thursday, fd#2 on friday 😀

noseovertail · 21/01/2020 21:52

Sorry, I meant maz Grin

moonlight1705 · 21/01/2020 22:26

Phew long and boring committee meeting over so I didn't get a chance to think about food after dinner at all. Ended the day on 618.

Well done nose aber maz and anyone else I've missed Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 21/01/2020 22:38

That's great, Maz
and well done too, nose, aber

Welcome, Oh 🙂
On these 5:2 threads, we all do whatever WOE we find sustainable on the NFDs

  • most folk just do their "normal" eating, but rein back the junk & booze to sensible amounts
Of course, low carb works very well with 5:2 if it is sustainable for you.

We - and Mosely - strongly recommend no snacking / grazing ever, even on WEs
So eat meals, nothing between
If you want an NFD "treat" then have it as part of a meal, e.g. as pud.

Most people can lose without counting on NFDs,
but if you find loss is slower than expected, then I recommend one week of mfp as a reality check on portion size and hidden calorie bombs
Some folk who have been overweight for quite a while have found their "normal" eating is more than their body burns; hence need to retrain habits

On FDs and miniFDs (800-1000 cals) there is no junk or alcohol and most folk find it easier when fasting if they keep starchy carbs to small portions, or cut them out.

800 cal works well for those with high (2400+) TDEE - so that's especially men, also women who are very tall / have a lot to lose

However, most women have much lower TDEE and need to stick to 500-600 to lose at the average 1lb rate, or else add a weekly miniFD or FD

I suggest you start at 800 and see how you progress
You can always tweak if need be.

Remember, Mosely says there is no allowance on FDs for exercise.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/01/2020 22:39

Well done, lania, moon, oh

OP posts:
Laniakea · 22/01/2020 09:49

You're right noseovertail, I feel fine this morning so planning to fast again :)

Anyone else today.

Breakfast was a double espresso while I made a pineapple upside down cake for poor dds 1 & 2 both of whom have tonsillitis :(

inthethickofit19 · 22/01/2020 12:47

Hello!

I find that if I don't do my first fd on Monday I don't manage to fit two in.

There's been something or other on everyday so not managed a fast yet. Won't manage tomorrow. Possibly Friday and then Sunday but it'll kick next week out. What to do? Should I just fast Friday and have sensible NFD and start next week as planned Monday and Thursday ?

Current weight 10 st 2.2lbs. Just had 1 Fd since getting back on and lost 3lbs. I know these aren't 'true' lbs but they are very encouraging 😁

Gonna have a quick read of the thread. I must apologise for not reading back and only posting about myself. It's so difficult to find the time with 2 under 3

aberjenagain · 22/01/2020 13:51

Well done nose and lania, and hope fd2 is going well.

Congrats on the sv inthe

Another 2.2 lb down here, putting me on 133.6 - just 0.6 off first target of 9.5 stone SmileSmile 9 st as a final target def feels achievable now! I seem to have a pattern of lose for 2 weeks, stabilise for 2 weeks, so I know things will probs slow down for a bit.

inthethickofit19 · 22/01/2020 13:52

@noseovertail I'm just 30 and had my 2nd 9 months ago and have noticed that since the birth I am the same - I eat and eat and eat in the two weeks leading up to my cycle 😳 hence I put weight on AFTER the birth. No tips but I've bought some evening primrose oil to see if balancing the hormones will help..

inthethickofit19 · 22/01/2020 13:53

Well done @aberjenagain !

aberjenagain · 22/01/2020 14:15

@inthethickofit19 I am 38 and my hormonal mood swings have gotten lots worse in the last year or so. My gp recommended Agnus castus and vitamin b6 as the supplements with the best body of evidence (albeit still sketchy). And she also put me back on the mini pill so I can’t comment on which if anything actually helps! That was a couple of months ago and I do feel a bit more ‘balanced’, but could just be placebo effect Smile

aberjenagain · 22/01/2020 14:15

Actually I mostly forget to take the agnus castus and b6...

inthethickofit19 · 22/01/2020 14:38

Thanks for that, I'll
Check it out

Laniakea · 22/01/2020 15:03

aber that's brilliant - well done!

We have similar goals I think, I'm aiming for 8st 10 to 9 stone, ideally it would be 8 & a half but I'm 45 & I think it would be a struggle to get that low. I dream of being back in the 9s!