5:2 Thread number 88: Anyone trying to pull you down is beneath you - come join our friendly & knowledgeable group to BOOST you up to goal

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

With you for FD today aber, moonlight

Welcome panem that sounds so hard with so many hospitalisations for your DC I sometimes do OMAD on FD like today-peri peri chicken and salad tonight and will have bovril if headache starts...

It’s hard inthethick I’ve just dragged out some cookbooks and got a new Tom Kerridge book for Xmas which has inspired some variety in meals for us-could you do similar?

Am enjoying fasting today here - so far nothing but water / peppermint tea - not even slightly hungry and looking forward to my chilli later.

Panem - sorry to hear about your DC.

I essentially do OMAD on FD - probably 80% of the time anyway. I do stick to roughly 500 cals - but I do that by sticking to simple meals those days and serving mine without the carbs or with minimal carbs - so I might do a stew or casserole, DC have with mash / roasties / dumplings or whatever - I have a good portion on its own.

It means family mealtimes still work , but actually since getting in the swing of fasting I don't get hungry before around 3pm on a FD anyway so its not an issue - I just have a cuppa around then to keep me going. If doing OMAD drinking plenty of water etc is really key.

Welcome zazu and wine and welcome back panem sorry to hear about your DC.

I'm with you all today too mrd aber moon what just had lunch of Turkey salad and sugar free jelly, but I'm freezing cold today!! Soup for dinner I reckon

Hope you are feeling better sydney and congratulations on your sv sparkle
Wow mrd it's scary how quickly they grow up!

Moonlight With that combination, I recommend your sister ask her doctors first if fasting is OK

Welcome, Gummy 🙂

If you are worried about NFDs, then roughly plan your meals for the day in advance, probably no need to calorie count

On the NFD, don't have sugary cereal or fruit juice for breakfast; instead include plenty of protein
e.g. scrambled eggs / veg omlette
or porridge with flaked almonds & berries
or 1-2 slices wholegrain toast with pnut butter - not too thick.

It's only on FDs that you shouldn't have junk
You can have some on NFDs, but obviously if you have too much it will affecct the rate of loss.

However, Mosely (and we) strongly recommend
No Snacking between meals,
so have any treats as part of your meal, e.g. have have your buttons as pudding at the table, right after supper
then drink a glass of water and clean your teeth, to avoid the temptation to nibble later

inthe depends on your triggers I guess but for me it's - don't have unhealthy stuff in the house. I'm home with the toddler most of the time; I know that if the cakes/crisps/whatever aren't in my cupboards by 5pm there's no chance to go out and get them. When I'm in the swing of things I have fairly good willpower, but around holidays etc I ban things from the house/give them to the food bank/anything else to minimise temptation. And ordering shopping in, so again I make sensible choices in advance. I'm very glad your LO is on the mend .

Well done, Hummus

Good luck, aber, MrD, What, nose and any other Tuesday fasters

Inthethick You could make life easier on FDs by having a readymade soup for lunch and a readymade supper

Sorry to hear you're going through all that worry, Panem
Best wishes for your DC 💐

We've discussed OMAD many times, but I always recommend against it as a regular system,
because of peer-reviewed human studies

I suggest you do FDs on the evenings that you don't have supper from kind friends
Plan the FDs with a 500 cal supper and then if someone brings supper unexpectedly, just do the FD another day

Alternatively, if you think supper will be around 1000 cals - which should be a pretty satisfying meal - just do 3 miniFDs per week with supper only
Try to finish eating by 8pm, as studies show that large late meals are not healthy longterm

OMAD is fine on FDs and OK on miniFDs, because the meal size is reasonable
BUT
studies have shown that as a WOE, regularly eating more than about 1200 cals in the evening increases CVD, high BP etc - so if this is your OMAD; then it is not healthy

Also OMAD often doesn't work well for weight loss - especially for women - after the first couple of weeks
It's easy to pack more than a woman's average TDEE into one indulgent meal and OMAD often removes inhibitions - that's often the reason people choose to do it.
There is a high risk of getting used to v large meals, which makes maintenance / "normal" eating difficult
and often leads to weight gain later

OMAD has worked for some male bodybuilders & lifters with a TDEE of 3-4000, because even a huge meal normally gives them a big deficit .... but they still have the health disadvantages of a large late meal

inthethick What can help break out of the unhealthy eating spiral is to keep to
5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NEVER snack / graze between meals - this is probably the most important
  Even "healthy" snacks like fruit or oatcakes raise insulin, which switches the body back from fat-burning to fat storage, increases hunger and usually overall calorie intake

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly

• keep your daily eating window to no more than 12 hours, e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm

• If you can be moderate, then have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, crisps, sugary treats)
  BUT only part of a meal, not on their own and not every NFD

• Have lots of water & veg - keep drinking water all day

• cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)

Thank you BigChoc my dear for that OMAD info and advice. Most appreciated. I’m certainly not having an indulgent evening meal (a bit more protein than usual, low carb as far as possible and with extra fruit veg) so it sounds like I’m doing a hybrid mini-FD/OMAD. I’ll be careful not to splurge in my own meal. I’ve done 3 so far in 6 days so plan is 3-4 a week. Also, I said “evening meal” but have small children so this is about 5pm.

And YY to your main point to inthethick about snacks. That’s what’s happened to make me pile on 2 stone in 6 months, I’m sure of it. Suddenly losing the ability to plan mealtimes, let alone cook healthy meals, and feeling stressed and tired meant grabbing convenience food on the go and grazing. (My poorly child often feels sick at food smells, which is another reason for my current strategy.) Also in the parents room there are usually snacks from visitors or passed onto us by staff, so until last week I was eating biscuits and sweets daily, after feeling so good having given it up during 4:3 several years ago and losing the taste for sugar. With intermittent fasting I break the sugar cycle.

Sounds a reasonable plan, panem
It must be so difficult when you are under the worst stress, with your body screaming for sugary fatty junk as relief ..... and there are junky snacks all around

• it's usually more effective to cut them out totally in such circumstances, rather than try to limit them

How are my fellow fasters getting on? I'm done on 509cals, I ended up with a small salmon fillet, green beans and carrots, cup of tea later while watching tv next fd is Friday....

Well done nose
I should finish on 500; still another hour until dinner though-sob...!!
Next FD Thursday as DH is out so will do usual formula of soup for lunch salad for dinner, bath and early night then!

How’s everyone else doing?

A bit more at 670 due to an unexpected lunch out with my boss, chose the soup but it was more than planned.

Still not too bad considering.

Well done nose and hope you get your dinner soon what

Kitchen closed on 511 here, just having my cuppa and I'm done for the day

Well done all

Hi all, I'm new to the thread and impressed at what a lovely place it is. I did 5:2 really successfully a few years back. 2 children later, I probably weigh what I did at 9 months pregnant . I haven't weighed myself as I'm not ready to know the numbers yet, but today was my first fast. It's gone pretty well, although I have had milk in my coffee during the day. Hopefully I'll drop that as time goes on, but I am pleased with a good start. I have a big birthday in May and I'm sick of hiding from the cameras. I want to be in a photo that I don't hate by then

Had first fast day today. Fasted for 17 hours but found it difficult to limit the snacks once I started eating. Had a low calorie but normal type dinner of chicken wrap with veg and salad as breastfeeding. It was easier to fast than I thought but harder to rein the calories in once I’d started eating. Bought pinch of nom cookbook for some low calorie ideas.

Hello all
Back on the WOE, after a few months off...
I lost 2 stone last year but plateaued for the past few months. I would like to try and shift another stone.
FD today, approx 600 cals
Well done all other Tuesday fasters

Well done on your 1st FD back, 80
and good luck on being where you want to be before May,

Sounds like you you've easily returned to the fasting swing

We've learned quite a bit about fasting over the last 5 years and probably the most significant tip in that time is
no snacking or grazing between meals, even normally healthy choices like fruit

That's a good 1st FD, Zazu

Now you've had your last meal of the day, drink a glass of water and clean your teeth - it really helps to avoid eating again before bed.
Next meal is breakfast tomorrow - include plenty of protein and avoid sweet breakfast cereal or juice after an FD

Well done too on your FDs, nose, what, moonlight, MrD

Welcome back, blodyn and well done on your FD
If you plateued for months, that's nearly always because of NFDs - eating back the FD deficit then.

Many folk find that to lose the final bit of bodyfat, they have to address habits that didn't matter so much during the earlier weight loss

Does snacking sometimes sneak into NFDs ?
That often stops further loss, not only because of the extra calories, but also because snacking keeps insulin high and significantly reduces fat-burning during the day

Are you drinking enough water ?
That's water, not fizzy flavoured drinks - Mosely references research that even diet drinks can change gut flora and hinder fat-burning

What has helped - and shocked ! - many folk in these circs is to mfp for just one week.
It's amazing where calorie bombs can hide, or sometimes it's just portion sizes

Compare the NFDs with your TDEE from Mosely's TDEE Calc and see if you have a decent weekly deficit

• 3,000 cals produces around 1 lb loss

If you absolutely hate the idea of even 1 week NFD, then keep a food diary - no calories - but write down absolutely everything each day after you eat or drink it,
then review it each week

Thanks, @BigChocFrenzy. Those are useful tips.

Like @PanemEtCircenses I’m looking to change habits and one of those is snacking and tiny little bits of sugary stuff that I was nibbling in throughout the day before.

Good luck to everyone fasting tomorrow.

Back to pre Xmas weight!! NFD today and FD planned for tomorrow. Think the weekend mini really helped this week.
Welcome blodyn and 80s
Hope everyone else has had success and good luck Wednesday fasters...

Hello everyone and Happy new year to you all and I hope you all had a good Xmas.

I’ve not posted in a few months as we made the impromptu decision to move house so that’s taken up a load of my time and then a few weeks into moving into our new house over Xmas my marriage broke down. It’s been a absolute nightmare and the house is now back on the market again.

My eating has gone from nothing to anything quick and easy. And I have gained some weight.
So new year new start and I intend to get back to fasting again on Monday and get myself back into shape.

morning everyone and welcome 80s and welcome back blodyn and duck for you duck it sounds like you've been through an awfully stressful time, be kind to yourself.

excellent SV what

first week weigh in today and I forgot and drank a mug of tea before I got on the scales, but 2lbs down which I am thrilled with as it has been relatively okay going

Nfd today but woken up not slightly hungry after fd yesterday so will just see how i go until lunch. Good luck to any weds fasters

Morning all

Congrats whattodo - I am ... not! But its heading in the right direction again at least lol!

Well done to all newbies and returners on your fasts

Congrats on the SV nose

Qucking - sorry to hear about your marriage breaking down, here if you need to vent / talk - been there! Here's to moving forward in 2020 for you

Hello again!

I was really successful with 5:2 last year but have fallen off the wagon. I was still fasting until school holidays but my normal days were getting worse and worse and I find I now need to lose 5 kg (with stretch goal of 10 kg).

Has anyone used something like the Paul McKenna "I can make you thin" app alongside 5:2 to help reset their approach to eating? I've got a lot of other things on at the moment and could use help getting back into the groove. Am slightly worried that the two methods might conflict.

Any experience or apps people can recommend would be much appreciated.