5:2 Thread number 88: Anyone trying to pull you down is beneath you - come join our friendly & knowledgeable group to BOOST you up to goal

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Well done nose! Kitchen closed here with a very tasty decaf coffee. Not the easiest day - we're potty training the toddler, it's as glamorous as it sounds - but hopefully as a b2b enough to make a dent in my holiday weight gain.

Welcome (back) others, it's lovely to have a big crowd here.

Well done hummus and nose
Welcome molly you’ve done it before you’ll be able to do it again..
Closed on about 550 I think... avoided wine, pop chips and chocolate all offered for dinner so that’s a NSV isn’t it?!!

Well done hummus ....urgh potty training well done what on the fd and temptation avoidance nsv

Nfd tomorrow, looking forward to a nice dinner together, ds has chosen chicken fajitas so I will load up on veg and salad, going to make homemade guacamole and salsa too and will make sure the sour cream and cheese is at the other end of the table!! but will allow myself a couple of glasses of wine. Next fd I think will be tues when I'm back at work.

Good luck weekend fasters, I've actually not minded fasting on a fri so I might make it a regular occurrence

Well done, hummus, what

A Friday fast stops the weekend indulgence extending over 3 days - what I call Weekend Creep 😂
A Saturday or Sunday FD is even more effective than a weekday one, as the likely calorie deficit is higher, as is the improvement in healthy choices.

That's a good policy for special NFD meals, nose:
Enjoy all your favourites, so you don't feel deprived, but boost veg and also water - keep them close to you to help this

Ha ha that describes it perfectly bcf

Weekend creep is exactly what I experience every week I think. Will try for more weekend miniFD I think at least.
2lbs of the Christmas gain off this morning so scales back in the 11st rather than the 12s.
Hope everyone else has had some positive news.

Morning all, wow you are all very good at getting back into FDs. My next one is on Tuesday (or should I say 1st one of the new year).

Big celebration for me as I've weighed again this week and have still STS despite having a few new years eve cocktails.

Back to work on Monday so back to routine. I didn't realise weekend creep was a recognised thing, really must try a FD one weekend day but it's hard as DH doesn't know I'm doing this so would start on the comments.

Well done what on being back under the 11st mark.

Well done on your SV, what

and on your holiday sts, moonlight - that's amazing

Is your DH very unhelpful - one of those in the title who drag you down ?
Or just thoughtless - would he be more supportive if you explained it is important for you for health, self-esteem etc ?

If not, maybe try a weekend miniFD (sub-1000 cals) or even a healthy sub-TDEE NFD
Either would give you more food / calories, but limited by no snacking, no booze and boosting veg and water
Could you e.g. have only black coffee on the go for breakfast, while relaxing, even having a short walk in the fresh air

Hey all, would love to join this thread. I am combined IF with keto. I tend to do 20:4 but with the occasional 24 hour fast. I’m doing it for weight loss and health benefits of fasting. I’ve only been doing it a week but going well - lost 7 pounds. I’m struggling to adjusting to buying less food though, I feel like I might end up with some waste this week as I just didn’t adjust enough

Welcome feeling! That sounds familiar re food waste, it does get easier (plus bills get lower!).

bfc he's not bad but doesn't believe in 'extreme' diets so would tell me I need to have more than 500 calories. However he is big on healthy eating so I could say no alcohol or snacks today and he'll go along happily and help me not to have any.

I tend not to talk about food or weight loss with him as he is lovely and slim and simply thinks a good walk will cure my 9st of fat. We do tons of walking so at least I've got that.

Well done feeling on a 7lb loss, I'm sure as you do it more then food quantities will become easier.

I’m so impressed by you lot!

I’m so worried that I’m becoming food obsessed on NFD and binging.

I have never had an eating disorder in my life. I’m not prone to disordered eating. But on NFDs I’m out of control.

I have just gorged on several chocolates in a way I wouldn’t have done before. It’s as if I’m programmed to overeat on NFD to compensate.

Maybe it’s because I’m already an ok weight (but not underweight) or quite active but I feel like it’s mushing my brain! I was ok pre Xmas so it’s maybe just all the chocolate in the house (it’s the kids’ - I can’t bin it!) or the bad sugar habits over Xmas.

Do I just give it a couple of weeks to settle?

@called that’s so tough!! What are you eating when you are not enjoying one too many chocolate bars?
Firstly I think don’t be hard on yourself. There are worse things in life that eating too many bars of choc occasionally. But I totally understand why you don’t want that to continue or escalate.

I have never done 5:2 but I do IF with the keto diet so I really feel like if I eat carbs I crave carbs. It’s a total addiction. Could you cut down ob carbs and see if that reduces your craving?

Also, it’s just been Christmas where almost everyone lost themselves to a few boxes of quality street. Sometimes it takes time to get back in it.

Good luck

I exercise a lot. So I mountain biked this morning. Ate well all day by which I mean nutrient dense, good food. Then boom. Thought “tomrrow is a fast day” and reached for chocolate. Awful!!!

I have just told myself I’m going to not do any FD for two weeks and the cravings have gone. I’m not sure if it’s because I’m doing a lot of exercise therefore or I am becoming addicted to food!

Welcome, feeling 🙂
IF and low carb work well together

I recommend against zero-cal fasting for longer than about 22 hours maximum,
to protect your muscle mass and avoid deficiencies

• so eat around your 500 cals on an FD, as in Mosely's plan

Glasgow If it's just having several chocs in a day - that's not unusual this time of year
However, if you feel you are bingeing, then I recommend cutting out chocolate for a week or two, to get things back under control

moonlight Your DH has no idea of the serious difference in WOLs between an active slim bloke staying slim and a woman who wants to lose a few stone

He also needs to get up to date with the science:
Fasting - under the kind of WOEs that Mosely, Fung & co recommend - isn't "extreme," but is now mainstream.

As well as weight loss and improving insulin resistance / preT2, it has been proven to help ailments like asthma, PCOS, some skin ailments and sometimes IBS
Fasting is one of the main recommendations by leading researchers into healthy aging

It is also used by some weightlifters and bodybuilders to lose fat while retaining or even building muscle

Maybe suggest he reads the peer-reviewed science listed at the end of the OP, under "Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health"

Glasgow I just read your last post

I suggest that since you are already well within healthy BMI, that you do daily 14:10 instead of the FDs
i.e. eat within a 14-hour daily window, say start 10am and end 8pm
still no snacking between meals

In the past, I've recommended that long distance runners do this
and your biking may be making similar demands on your body:

FDs lower your glycogen stores, on the way to fat-burning, but prolonged cardio sessions also call on glycogen for fuel, which can mean running on empty on an FD or the following morning
Your body may be demanding chocolate in anticipation

Oops 10-hour window !

Thanks bigchoc. Really appreciate your advice - you know a lot!! And I say that as someone who reads a lot in this area...

I think low glycogen is exactly it plus eating a pile of rubbish over the holidays. I exercise most days - not to excess but weights and either cycling or a gentle run or dog walks and I think my metabolic rate is high and it’s all gone a bit skewed. All I can think about is food since starting the 5:2 and my next meal or next FD.

I have done 14:10 for years and it works well for me although I need three meals a day on it due to my exercise.

You have be already been enormously helpful in helping me stop constant snacking. So I think I’m going to have two weeks out of fasting, focus on no snacks and see where I end up. Hopefully away from the sugar habit and back on track! My possible end goal is one 800 cal fast day a week. Or maybe two lower carb days a week. Long term low carb doesn’t work for me.

If you return to FDs, I'd recommend sticking to miniFDs,
i.e. same food / drink rules as FDs, but allow up to 1000 cals
That allows 3 small meals

Remember that losing some weight, even only half a stone, could make your body fight to regain
That can be expressed by increased hunger,
especially if you've been that half stone higher for a long time - homeostasis in action.

This is why some people find after weight loss that they suddenly have increased appetite for calorie dense treats

Sometimes it's because your best weight, especially with exercise, may be higher than you think,
i.e. you've actually gone below your personal ideal weight
That weight is very individual depending on your body, lifestyle and exercise program:
-some folk may be fine on BMI 19; others may do better on BMI 24

Welcome feeling
called that sounds very frustrating but lots of good advice from bcf that will surely help, hope so!

Nfd today and I have my totm and I'm cold and hungry dh currently preparing Turkey burgers for dinner with a huge salad for me and just a small portion of wedges. Hoping they will fill the gap
Last day off tomorrow with ds (inset day at school) so we're off for lunch and then cinema, will be lots of places to choose from so will be fine and I dont really like popcorn so can avoid that.

Hope everyone is having a good Sunday

I guess this is peak time to join!

I have been on 5/2 since September and have lost 20 pounds. Had a bit of a blip over Christmas, but proud that it was only a 4 pound gain, as I'm a bit of an 'all or nothing' eater and could easily have gone into 'I've blown it' mode and eaten everything in sight

Anyway I still have around 20 pounds to go, but am feeling positive.

Good luck to everyone in 2020. I hope it's a good one...

Welcome parsley!

Welcome, Parsley 🙂
and congratulations on your SV

Don't worry; tackling that holiday regain right away should soon zap it

I hope you enjoyed your cinema outing, nose

Are you FDing today, Hummus ?

Welcome parsley! You’ve joined a friendly and helpful crew and I really value the support. I’ve been 5:2 since September too, gained 5lb over Xmas but 2lb down so far...

Decided to go for a mini FD today as we are having pho for dinner and can make that super low calorie so should finish on about 900.