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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 88: Anyone trying to pull you down is beneath you - come join our friendly & knowledgeable group to BOOST you up to goal

979 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2019 00:06

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
OohMrDarcy · 13/12/2019 07:39

No b2b for me today, as I'm giving my 30th blood donation later- so will be fitting in a weekend FD at some point!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2019 08:57

Good for you, giving blood, MrD 🏅

OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 13/12/2019 09:32

Hi everyone, loving the SV and NSVs 😁

I need to work a better system for my FD. I prefer to skip breakfast and I do best at eating around 4pm. However with the kids that's near impossible. It gets to at least 6pm before I can eat and by then I have a splitting headache 🤕 any small low calorie snacks I can eat at 4pm? I don't like brovil or marmite

OohMrDarcy · 13/12/2019 10:53

How about some raw veg or a boiled egg?

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 13/12/2019 13:38

Well done on the results.

thick of it I’m the same. I have a proper snack mid afternoon or feel dreadful. Sometimes two apples and some walnuts. Depends if a FD or not. Easier for me not to snack on a NFD!

OohMrDarcy · 13/12/2019 14:22

No giving blood for me today Sad iron level too low to donate. Not low enough that it is a problem but they like to keep a good margin.... ho hum, obviously wasn't destined to reach 30th donation this decade!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2019 15:44

If you need a minimeal to keep you going, then I recommend something with protein and fat, plus optionally a small amount of carbs
e.g. a boiled egg with some veg

You might do better with 2 meals, so a small lunch and reduce the size of supper

Don't worry, MrD
Many women of menstruating age are low on iron, sometimes other minerals too.

I recommend boosting iron in food.

Highest sources (in descending order):
liver, clams, oysters, beef, sardines, turkey, chicken, salmon, tuna, haddock, ham

Important
With vegetarian sources of iron, you need to combine them in the same meal with food containing vitamin C, to enable sufficient absorption.

Combine Vit C sources

  • especially good: apple, tomatoes, pomegranates, peaches, dates, bell peppers

with iron sources

  • recommended: spinach, soy / kidney beans, chick peas, lentils, almonds, walnuts, sesame seeds, broccoli, baked potato
OP posts:
MazDazzle · 13/12/2019 21:28

That’s disappointing Darcy. 29 donations is still bloody amazing though! (see what I did there? Grin)

FD here today. Had 1 slice of toast and baked beans. And a square of fudge. Not the best, but not too bad for a Dec fast!

Off to make some leek and potato soup for tomorrow.

Enjoy your weekend everyone.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2019 07:03

Well done, Maz

OP posts:
Pineappleunder · 14/12/2019 07:09

Anybody else on a weekend FD? My busy period of work starts today for the next 4 months,so no such thing as a weekend and lots of weird hours to work. 9-3 then 7-11 today so a perfect little eating window and as long as I don't take food with me then no temptation to snack.

moonlight1705 · 14/12/2019 07:18

I lost 1lb this week which means I'm now under the 19st barrier. Depressingly I've never lost fast, even on the Cambridge diet eating only shakes I only lost 5lb in the first week and that was barely eating at all. So going to keep plodding on.

What are you all up to this weekend? We're off to see a Christmas tree festival.

MazDazzle · 14/12/2019 08:40

Well done moonlight. 1lb off for me too! I’m taking the kids to a family Christmas party in our local town hall this weekend. Just need to stay focused and not go overboard. Enjoy the Christmas Tree festival!

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 14/12/2019 10:56

That’s good moonlight. Slow and steady wins the race

I’m on a FD today. Really annoyed with my last two NFDs when i ended up having crap both afternoons! I’m worried about something and comfort eating wan. On it today though!

Whattodowithaminute · 14/12/2019 16:13

Well done maz and moonlight 1lb is good progress in the right direction!
good luck today glasgow and any other weekend fasters.

You’ve inspired me to register with the blood donation team MrD I’ve had a lot of years off with pregnancies etc but I used to be a regular donor and I’m rhesus negative so my blood is quite in demand as I understand it!

Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow · 14/12/2019 17:07

I have blood for years until I needed it and now I’m not allowed to! Was very grateful for it when I needed it.

Just managed a 40 minute run on a FD so real progress here. Had a coffee with a little milk so I’m guessing that counts as a snack?!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2019 17:12

Well done on your SV, moonlight, Maz

Good luck, Pineapple

moonlight, if you want to speed up loss, then I recommend you mfp for one week,
to check you aren't eating back most of the FD deficit on your NFDs

Your average calorie target on NFDs is to be within TDEE
So use Mosely's TDEE Calc, as it is pretty reliable
(not the TDEE / calories calc in mfp or fitbit etc)

He says that exercisers should calculate TDEE using one activity level lower than they think they do.
If you do very little regular exercise, then calculate using sedentary

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 14/12/2019 18:07

TDEE of 2600 and generally eat 1600 to 1800 on a non FD. I use MFP every day to log it and check. I think I've dieted so much in life that my body just shuts down somehow. Do you think it's worth me eating up to my limit some days?

Resisted snacking today so feeling good about that.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2019 22:34

Well done on resisting snacking, Moonlight
That will help

I recommend for the next 2 weeks that you eat up to your TDEE on say 2 NFDs per week
See if that can start to increase your metabolic rate

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2019 22:38

Yesterday evening, our village Christmas market started
Lovely friendly crowd

It's literally right down the steps outside my door and runs along the Rhine bank
Lots of Christmas lights, Christmas trees and stalls with local crafts, mulled wine, sausages, chips, crepes ...

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 15/12/2019 07:27

FD here - anyone else about?

That market sounds lovely bigchoc (but very tempting!). Well done moonlight.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2019 08:15

Good luck, Hummus

I'd have joined you, but with a Christmas market 20 meters away I doubt that's happening Wink
It's fortunately only on this weekend

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 15/12/2019 08:34

That market sounds amazing BigChoc and I'm very jealous.

We had a Christmas Fayre here a couple of weekends ago but it was a case of battling the crowd just to find the same old stall over and over again, I mean how many hot chocolates with baileys can one drink?

Bet yours is a proper one.

EssentialHummus · 15/12/2019 21:04

Kitchen closed here - no idea of calories (as usual!) but a bean stew for lunch, and chicken with pan fried broccoli and tomato for dinner. Had a xmas party in the afternoon that I'd forgotten about, but I stuck to a small glass of mulled apple juice and stayed away from the mince pies.

Next weekend marks the start of Hannukah - eight days with doughnuts and fried food aplenty - so if anyone has any spare willpower going I think filly and I will need it! Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2019 23:19

Well done, Hummus

Enjoy your Hanukah, hummus, filly
I vaguely know candles are lit
Are donuts prescribed by any religious text, or is that a recent addition ? Wink

Moonlight 'tis a proper Christmas market, only a few steps away Smile
Delightful atmosphere, community spirit, lights, decorated stalls most with various mulled wines, all sorts of hot savoury and sweet food
I prefer our village market, run by local folk, to the much bigger and more elaborate ones in the big towns and cities

The differences to the main ones, such as in Frankfurt, are having only 20-30 stalls instead of hundreds and only being open 3 days, Fri-today, instead of a few weeks

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 16/12/2019 08:07

It’s actually worse than that bigchoc - because the underlying story of the holiday is that a particular temple was supposed to run out of oil but found they miraculously had enough for eight days, the main requirement is food cooked in oil Grin. Frankly doughnuts are the sensible option Grin!

Anyway - good luck to any Monday fasters, and apologies for starting your FD with two (now three!) refs to doughnuts.