5:2 Thread number 88: Anyone trying to pull you down is beneath you - come join our friendly & knowledgeable group to BOOST you up to goal

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Overdid it a bit at the weekend - nothing major but we had a big family fish & chips night on Friday, 10 lunch guests on Saturday and then Indian take out last night (although I did fast all day beforehand and tried to make semi sensible choices)....very unusual for us to have 2 take out meals in a weekend & it’s definitely impacted on the scales, which were 9.10 this morning.

Not actually checking in for a FD as I’ve got a biannual pre xmas catch up meal with old friends this evening but at this rate it may be completely alcohol & food free.... Sadly it seems Indian on an empty stomach wasn’t such a great idea - I was up half the night & am sticking to mint tea today!! Hopefully my tummy will settle soon given that I’m delivering a 4 hour training session to 30 colleagues this afternoon

BCF you make your b2b weekends sound strangely alluring. Ive been surprised that I quite enjoy Sunday FDs, especially when I can combine them with gym and a good long dog walk! Are you renovating your whole apartment? Melted cheese is definitely my bete noir too - once I start there’s no such thing as a little...to (mis?) quote Bette Middler: “I can withstand everything except temptation” Moonlight, I’m amazed by your willpower!

Your dinner sounds delish JCurve. Very impressed by your DH’s new skills! And well done on nailing your b2b

What car did you buy Hummus? How exciting! I’m with you in mostly finding summer fasts can be super easy whilst winter ones...brrrr! Thank goodness for thermal underwear

Congrats on your SV inthethickofit - that’s a great place to be as you pick up your FDs again.

Glasgow, I’m in the same boat! Desperately trying to turn down social stuff as it’s massively messing with both FDs and getting to the gym. And large late night meals seem to be particularly bad for weight gain, even when I’ve not eaten much (or at all...) the rest of the day. Hold your nerve

Good luck Sydney - hope mini-Syd is feeling better soon, & that you don’t catch it either!

Hope you feel better soon filly sounds like you’ve had a hectic time.

Kitchen closed on 550 here-think I quite like bovril...!

Well done on a good FD, what

I hope your tum is ok now, filly

I also use the tactic of eating nothing before a big meal out - BUT I've learned, like you, that I should enjoy eating to be comfortably full, but not stuffed, especially if it is very rich / spicy food.

V spicy food can irritate an empty tum - so I go for milder choices -
and alcohol is an irritant too, so try to stick to one glass wine and keep drinking water

Also try not to gobble my food, so I chew every mouthful properly - when I remember
I'm a person, not a goose"

Weekend FDs tend to make the most difference, because most of us would otherwise be eating well over TDEE
So the calorie deficit is higher, more bang for your fats

Also, I found early on in 5:2 that my WEs were sabotaging my week's work, so this tactic kills 2 birds ....
Over the years, I've learned to be sensible at WEs, but I still like the tactic of a WE fast or b2b

more bang for your fats fast !
< smacks iPad >

Kitchen closed on 1009 , so I guess high end of a mini FD. I could have finished on just over 600 from lunchtime and not eaten anything else, but just wasn’t feeling it today, I needed a bit more. Quite surprised that MFP didn’t give me a bollocking for not eating enough- usually on a FD I get a stern warning and a reminder I should be eating at least 1200 calories a day, but on just over a thousand there was no warning note .

Thanks for good wishes for mini Syd, she’s gone off to bed looking a bit more cheerful . Fingers crossed DD2 and DS remain upright!

That’s still a good FD! I don’t really count carefully enough on FDs. I really should but I am cooking for five and just am short of time/energy.

Agree about WE FDs bigchoc! Definitely help to keep me on straight and narrow. I have that “can’t be arsed feeling” tonight which I sometimes get on a FD. I end up going to bed early which isn’t a bad thing as usually I’m pottering way too late.

How long does it take to learn NOT to stuff yourself and not to overeat on a NFD?!?! I am doomed!

Well done on your miniFD, Sydney

Glasgow re How to retrain NFD habits

New habits of all kinds usually take at least a month to become fixed

The day before, plan your meals for the full NFD so you know exactly what you are going to have
not "how much", but just "what" you'll eat

AND
Try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals,
• have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
• lots of water & veg
• cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)

Well done sydney, sounds a good job given the circs at home. It's always tricky when the little ones are ill.

filly I hope the training session went off without a hitch and that you're enjoying your evening out. It looks like 9.10 is a bit of a sticking point for you, so onwards and downwards once the social side of things calms down a bit. And thank you for the good wishes about the car - it's just a newer version of what we had before (which died on us quite suddenly a few weeks ago at the healthy age of 23!). We live in the guts of Zone 2 with lots of buses and cars roaring by, so nothing too fancy as it'll inevitably get scratched etc.

glasgow what I sometimes do is just plan for half a portion of whatever the rest are having, and an enormous helping of veg (broccoli, cauliflower...). This way I broadly get away without calorie counting.

Good luck to any Tues fasters.

I was doing so well on my FD until about 4.30pm and then had some really devastating news. I then did what I always seem to do and had a huge binge of food. I guess I'm still within TDEE as I was meant to be fasting but it's not a healthy reaction to shock.

Hoping to start 5:2 with a 16/8 in the new year, so lurking to pick up tips.

Thanks glasgow, I found I was eating much more than I thought on NFDs, although I was counting fairly carefully for the FDs, and had put on a couple of pounds as a result. Incredibly gutted as I had spent five months plugging away at 5:2 and thought I was doing it right (I don’t - or didn’t back in November- have scales so it was a shock when I visited my parents and weighed myself there!). I started properly logging food on MFP and it was quite an eye opener.

I gave up alcohol and crisps (the two usually go hand in hand for me ) for November which definitely helped get me started on a slightly better path, but I do find logging the food acts as a good incentive not to go overboard, especially with the more snacky type foods.

Thanks for that info. I have also put on two pounds but have had days of meals out so it could be a lot worse.

I don’t really drink and am pretty good not having sweets etc. My absolutely downfall is snacking but advice the other week about a proper mini meal in the avo has worked brilliantly and I also have managed no snacks on days I have not been working.

Treats as part of a meal is a real change. Bye bye dark chocolate 3pm habit.

You lot are amazing!

Moonlight 💐 I hope you're OK

Glasgow For family meals on FDs, the key is usually avoiding 1-pot dishes and instead separating the components into different dishes.

I suggest you just have the protein & masses of veg, but skip or v small portions of starchy carbs and creamy / oily sauces

e.g. roast dinner for you = lean meat, portions of 3+ different non-starchy veg, plus a teasp horseradish / mint sauce.
Makes a big plateful, so just looks extra-healthy rather than "dieting"

The rest of the family add potatoes, parsnips, yorkshires, cauli cheese, gravy etc

That's an important insight, Sydney

Many people lose on 5:2 without ever counting on NFDs, so just their "normal" eating then
However, some folk who have struggled with weight for a long time have got used to "normal eating" that is well above TDEE, what their body burns
Easily done with food pushed at us 24/7

So on NFDs, they eat back all / almost all the FD calorie deficit and hence don't lose

Hence, if loss stops after the initial couple of weeks, I always advise people to mfp for just 1 week, as an NFD reality check, to highlight any hidden calorie bombs, portion size, sugar etc
Many folk who have done this have been quite shocked, but the information indicates how to retrain habits.

Good luck in the NY, bellevu

Only managed 1 FD last week and it’s my totm, so I’ve avoided the scales. Today was a successful FD though, so hopefully I can get back on track this week.

moonlight missed your update. I hope you are ok?

Thinking of you moonlight, hope you're alright.

Well done maz! Welcome bellevu.

Yes I guess that’s the way ahead and I try to do that. But all those lovely green leafy veg taste so much better with lots of olive oil. I think I consume gallons of the stuff a year 🤣

Moonlight, sending love and hope you’re ok

Well done on your FD Maz - it can take time to adjust to this woe, so stick with it

Unusually early morning FD check in for me. Still on 9.10 - I ended up overloading on chips and pita bread last night, as I turned out to be quite hungry after a day of mint tea and just some plain porridge, and that was the only food that wasn’t going to upset my tummy. Shame though, as it could have been an MFD if better options had been available (& I had had more willpower....)

I’ve got a day (mostly) off work today, so in between a few urgent meetings I’ve got a riding lesson, a load of running around chores, an early parents evening appointment and then a Pump class...hopefully that will keep me too busy to be distracted by various offers of food through the day! Salmon and loads of veg for dinner, I think.

Good luck to all the Tuesday fasters

Thank you all - just had rather a big shock but its not life and death so needed a night to cry and get my head into gear.

I am doing two mini FDs over the week and trying to stick to around 900 calories. Today should be fairly easy as I'm back at work and Thursday should be good as well. I'm going to see if I can negate the horrible binge out that i did yesterday.

What are healthy ways of coping when you have awful news? I know most people don't go and scoff down 6 bags of crisps in one go.

Well done on yesterday's FD, Maz

Good luck today, Filly, moonlight

So sorry you had such bad news, moonlight 💐
Feel free to vent here if you want

It's very individual how to cope
Pesonally, I turn to exercise after bad news, either a long walk outside, if I need to think a lot,
or something intense if I need to let off steam
e.g. punchbag, air-punching, rope-skipping, spin class, pump ....

The day I heard my mum died was a carnival day in Germany and I was with a local group, so I was able to hammer the drums and shout

I know what you mean BigChoc, my mum died in January and despite being 37 weeks pregnant, I came home and did the taekwondo class where I got to hit a kick shield repeatedly.

My dad has gone off the rails and ended up being arrested this weekend so we probably have a court trial to get through in a few months unless evidence shows he is not guilty. I want to believe his story but there is a bit of me thinking that he has gone slightly mad in the months since my mum died.

Anyway, enough moaning for one day, I've had a decent mini FD so far and have got a lovely fishcake and veg for tea.

moonlight sounds like a pretty horrid year for you I am a comfort eater. I am trying to find distractions for myself instead of food - tv, crochet, angry cleaning! But most often I have to try not to launch myself face-first into chocolate...

Hope you’ve had a good fd filly

Well done to all for the nailed FDs over the last few days 👊🏻

Fd done here on 550 - skinny spiced cappucino for lunch, as catching up with a friend at Costa, then teriyaki salmon with Pak Choi, spinach and peas with a sprinkling of toasted sesame oil. Lush! I think I put more effort into making my fd meals super tasty when I know it’s the only thing I’ll eat all day!

Oh, and things are ‘moving’ better again. Usually self limiting. mrd I don’t get anywhere near enough fibre and find it hard to add more. Need to have think. Hard to replace refined carbs with unrefined as I just don’t eat much in the way of bread/pasta to begin with.

aber To get more fibre:
beans, peas, lentils
nuts, seeds
and EAT MORE VEG !

Also drink more water - that helps keep things moving