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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

981 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2019 17:38

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
aberjenagain · 26/09/2019 08:57

NFD here - it’s breakfast bap day at work, so holding out until then for breakfast, and also someone has baked the most amazing cinnamon buns, so I have one of those for later too.

Scales showing 1.6 lb down after my b2b, putting me on 148.4 lb now. Very pleased with that, scales creeping down nicely. Just over 1 stone to my top-end target. And an nsv from my friend who commented on me looking slimmer Smile

Good luck to today’s fasters!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/09/2019 11:02

fab SV and NSV aber and enjoy your buns Smile

Good luck for tomorrow's weigh in what Smile

Whattodowithaminute · 26/09/2019 11:14

Can I just confirm I’ve got this right
Exercise on FD and you don’t get any extra calories

Exercise on NFD and you get as more or less extra calories than you burn?!!

BloggersBlog · 26/09/2019 11:37

Well done Aber! That is great news. Enjoy the treat too Grin
Leapt on the scales today after having b2b FDs, jogged 4 times this week, hit the 8k steps everyday and some days 12k....and put on 3lbs Hmm can't even blame totm as just finished lol can't win!

AutumnRose1 · 26/09/2019 11:55

I'm confused generally

I never allocate extra calories for a workout because I've been working out for years and still gained weight.

Also I thought half the thing here was to be saved the fuss of counting calories?

VanGoghsDog · 26/09/2019 13:35

This week is a write off for me.
Last week did b2b, then away with parents and ate too much (being with them is both stressful and dull so eating is all I have). Then back Sunday, away with dp walking M-W, but felt ill Monday (still walked ten miles but really struggled from about six onwards, assumed it was just tiredness after days with the olds), then no appetite for my dinner.

From Tue heavy cold. So didn't walk Tue, came back Wed, went on an hour's bat watching walk last night but am exhausted. Ache all over. So didn't eat much yesterday. Eaten a bit better today so far.

But no fasting this week as I'm ill but also no extra food as no appetite.

New week starts Monday. I'll probably give Sunday's walk a miss too.

AutumnRose1 · 26/09/2019 13:48

VanGogh "being with them is both stressful and dull so eating is all I have"

I feel for you. That combo of boring + stressful is lethal. I hope your cold goes asap.

bwydda · 26/09/2019 17:17

Van Gogh- I feel similar. I've managed one fd this week but today I just couldn't.
I had to work with a new team- all older men who HATED having to work with a woman. They were almost unbearable, so skipping breakfast AND lunch (as was the plan) wasn't possible for me. Ended up with an egg sarnie and a kit Kat. I'm finally home and feel that I can either - not eat again all day, resentfully watch my family eat the 670 cal massaman curry I slow cooked for us, or , just let this one go and be more mindful of my nfd over the weekend. I think the latter is healthier for mental and physical wellbeing and longevity of the diet.

In other more positive news - I'm 11lbs down having lost another 1lb this week, and NSV- I've realised that today has been the first time I've been tempted to snack at all in at least 2 1/2 weeks. That habit seems to have just gone. 5 weeks in, I'm just so happy I started this. Ive never been on any diet this long without "cheating" "being naughty" "ha OMG a blow out" etc etc and ultimately taking steps back. This time I think this is it. I'm not struggling (not even in light of a missed fd this week) and am in it for the long game this time.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/09/2019 18:49

Oh dear, hope everyone starts feeling better soon....

That feeling that you don't need a snack is great isn't it? Excellent weight loss bwydda id be inclined to move fd to another day and enjoy your planned meal, can you fit one in tomorrow?

Mini fd#2 coming in at around 820 cals, feeling quite satisfied, got my kit on ready to head out to zumba and my ds's taekwondo class has been cancelled and dh has just left to do the food shopping so that puts paid to that! I'll Hoover instead Grin

Hope all the other Thursday fasters are doing well

Whattodowithaminute · 26/09/2019 20:09

Impressive progress bwydda such an inspiration to hear in 5 weeks!

Kitchen closing on 525 today; I’ve been impressed with that as I baked cupcakes for a cake sale tomorrow and haven’t eaten one!

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 20:30

Congratulations on your SV and stone milestone, aber
That compliments NSV proves the change is visible now

Congratulations too, aber on your SV
and on your "No SNacking" NSV

Those old fogies you had to work with need to get into the 21st century, or they'll be left behind in the slipstream

Next time, maybe you can just leave them at mealtimes and stick to your mealplan, because you need a break from their unpleasantness anyway, maybe a walk to relieve the stress

I hope that nasty cold goes soon, vanGogh 💐
Yep, don't fast until you feel well enough, but do keep drinking plenty of water when ill

WhatToDo, AutumnRose On FDs, Mosely says there is no extra calorie allowance for exercise
You probably need to count calories on FDs until you have a good feel for what is 500

On NFDs, you eat "normally," as these are maintenance days

No need to count cals at all on NFDs - most 5:2ers don't
However, once someone start talking about "exercise allowance", then that automatically means they are counting some calories at least
That's fine; whatever you prefer - count or don't count

Don't use gadgets though, as they often over-estimate the net extra calories burned

Instead, Mosely says if you want a rough calorie target, then aim for TDEE and use Mosely's TDEE Calc
He also says that exercisers calculate with one activity level lower than they think, as most folk over-estimate their level

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 20:35

Well done, 43, WhatToDo

Oh, that's frustrating about your class, 43
Hoovering is a poor consolation prize
I hope there's a class you like tomorrow, or good weather for a run / walk

Impressive cupcake willpower, WhatToDo
You can chant our 5:2 FD mantra: "I can have it tomorrow"

Bloggers That might still be a blip from totm
Sometimes people find the loss when they weigh after the following NFD, not directly after the FD
Your body isn't a computer and weight fluctuates from day to day naturally, even when not dieting and from morning to evening

Also, did you weigh under the exact same conditions as last time ?

. use the same scales in the same place on a hard, level surface - not carpet
. ideally 1st thing in the morning before drinking or eating anything, but after loo
. and weigh yourself naked
. Switch on the scales and count slowly to 3, so they have time to calibrate, then step on - don't jump
. Keep still and don't lean to the side or back / front

OP posts:
AutumnRose1 · 26/09/2019 21:56

"No need to count cals at all on NFDs - most 5:2ers don't"

Oh good, that's what I thought.

Whattodowithaminute · 27/09/2019 06:39

That’s helpful, I’m counting all Cal’s on all days at the mo as I had a pretty awful snacking problem which I needed to get some perspective on. Hopefully as I get better insight into what a normal day looks like I can stop counting.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/09/2019 07:39

it really depends on the person what I still count calories after 1.5 years on this WOE, when I don't I do overeat (just naturally bloody greedy and lack of will power!) Blush I hope one day I will be able to eat like a normal person Grin

Mini FD#3 today and I'm so looking forward to my slap up meal tomorrow, been telling myself I can have what I fancy on saturday for 2 (will be 3 days)...... hopefully I can look awesome in a dress for the occasion Wink

Good luck friday fasters, you with me mrd??

OohMrDarcy · 27/09/2019 09:24

of course 43 - here and ready to start the weekend strong.

Got a niggly start of a bug at the moment I'm trying to ignore, but plenty of water and tea is helping the very slightly sore throat. Nothing to worry about and no need to stop fasting I don't think - yet anyway!

Bathroom work is driving me mad - using insane amounts of dry shampoo and now we are down to half a toilet so having to use a bucket to flush for the next week whilst the tiling etc is done - will feel like a luxury to have my working bathroom again, let alone a nice new one Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 27/09/2019 11:31

Good luck, 43, MrD

I hope your new bathroom is finished v soon, MrD - that sounds so tough
Keep drinking, especially if you may have a bug

WhatToDo We (and Mosely) recommend totally cutting out snacking / grazing between meals.
Permanently

Eating between meals keeps insulin raised, which hinders fat-burning and increases overall hunger
Snacking at night especially hinders the overnight fast, which is crucial for decent fat loss

Most folk don't need to calorie count if they use he NFDs to develop daily longterm habits like the 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:

  • NEVER snack / graze between meals
  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, , not on their own
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 27/09/2019 11:46

Today marks the halfway point bigchoc! Will be finished next Friday

BigChocFrenzy · 27/09/2019 12:34

ARRRGH, MrD ! Grin

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/09/2019 13:11

oh dear mrd just keep envisioning your beautiful new bathroom Smile
and fingers crossed you manage to fight off those pesky bugs!!

Had soup, chicken and a couple of breadsticks for lunch, not sure yet re: dinner, maybe a tuna steak and some stir fried veggies and a yogurt to follow.... that's if I can be arsed to venture out in the pouring rain to the shops!

EssentialHummus · 27/09/2019 13:59

Oh dear mrd - head down and get through the next week. Thinking of you Brew.

NFD here, and the weather is atrocious! I hope the weekend is a bit milder.

OohMrDarcy · 27/09/2019 18:20

Kitchen closed on 512 here. Including the options salted caramel hot choc I'm sat cradling to cheer me up!

Hope all the other FDs went well, 43? Anyone else?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/09/2019 18:49

Well done mrd are you feeling any better?

Mini fd #3 done at around 880 cals, will have a brew later but that's it. I'm not sure if I prefer 3 minis to 2 fds, I think it depends on what else I have on in the week.

Going to risk a weigh in tomorrow I think as have had 2 really good weeks and it's been about 3 weeks since I last weighed. If I don't lose anything then I'm giving up! (Not really!)

OohMrDarcy · 27/09/2019 19:04

Fingers crossed for you tomorrow 43 (and me!)

BigChocFrenzy · 27/09/2019 19:22

Well done, 43, MrD
and I hope you both have happy news tomorrow

OP posts: