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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

981 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2019 17:38

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 21:42

Well done, aber, mynxie, bloggers, hummus, bwydda

and good luck tomorrow to those doing b2b

Oh how frustrating, hummus Better to miss a week than to weigh on the wrong day for your graph
Can you nip out early to a corner shop or whatever, to buy new batteries - and resist eating or drinking until after weighing

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/09/2019 22:04

Well done all the tues fasters :-)

Nfd gone reasonably well although 150ish of the cals I'd banked yesterday went on some cake with bake off.... but still around 400 in the bank Smile

Right now I'm going for weds thurs fri mini fds I think, although will see how I feel in the morning.

Night everyone

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 22:07

That's fine, 43
Good luck on the miniFDs

OP posts:
mummTum · 24/09/2019 22:54

Hi everyone, can I join please?
I started yesterday with my first ever fast day and it was so hard! Was really hungry all day and found sleeping hard too, although wasn’t as ravenous as I thought I’d be once I woke up.
Next fast day is Thursday and I have to say that I’m not looking forward to it....

OohMrDarcy · 25/09/2019 06:49

Well done to all yesterdays fasters, some great ones in the bag.

43 - good luck for your 3 minis on the bounce!

Welcome mumm - it can take some getting used to, but tips that help me - always drink plenty on FD (will feel like loads if you dont drink much normally), try not to drink booze the night before FD , and aim for a healthy normal meal before fasting - not too carb or sugar heavy (doesn't mean low carb, just not a massive plate of pasta for eg). Not everyone needs to follow that, I just find I'm hungrier when fasting after stuff like that.

Keep posting, we are a supportive bunch and bigchoc has a wealth of knowledge!

mummTum · 25/09/2019 07:52

Thanks for the tips!

I decided on doing my second fast day today because I’m having lunch out tomorrow with a client and I’m not sure how I’d manage it! So far I’ve had a glass of fizzy water and a tea, about to have my second one. Last night I had a big plate of stir fried veggies but a glass of wine as was at event.

Good luck everyone fasting today! I know I’ll need it, especially as I’m at home all day with kids and playing netball tonight but hoping that will keep my mind off food...!

EssentialHummus · 25/09/2019 08:11

bigchoc annoyingly it is an obscure battery size, so I'll need to order online - but treating this as a lesson to get a backup in too. I think I'll just weigh next week as usual.

Welcome mumm - NB watch for mindlessly eating off DC's plates. Not sure how old yours are but that was a big issue for me with the toddler. Good luck today to you and any other fasters!

Fillybuster · 25/09/2019 09:27

Some great FD updates - well done all! Hummus my scales keep telling me that the battery is low and I’ve been ignoring it...will get dh to check what they take and order some new ones today. It’s super annoying when they die...!!

Mixed results on my trip so far. I ended up having fish and chips, sticky toffee pudding & ice cream and two glasses of wine on Monday night...but I had been to the gym and shredded first, and had only had a small sandwich and some carrots the rest of the day. Made it into the gym at 7am for another shred session yesterday morning, then just poached eggs & toast with black coffee and a salad lunch - swerved all conference biscuits, sweets and sarnies! But...the dinner was so absolutely dire (practically inedible) that I ended up having another portion of sticky toffee pudding and a glass of wine when I got back to my hotel last night ConfusedBlush. Back in the gym at 6.30am today for another shred session and some weights, and again just poached eggs and some marmite toast for breakfast. Challenge will be conference lunch and black tie dinner tonight....hoping to squeeze in a second Shred session later today to hopefully counterbalance some of this. So, some good, some bad, and some wobbles....

Will be super happy if I can make it back home still at 9.12...Bear

BigChocFrenzy · 25/09/2019 09:27

Welcome, mumm 🙂
and good luck on your FD today
hummus is right about avoiding DC leftovers

On FDs:

  • no alcohol whatsoever, no added sugar treats like cake, biscuits etc
  • Have 1 or 2 meals, no snacks / grazing between
  • base meals on protein with plenty of veg and optionally a small portion of starchy carbs
  • avoid fruit juice, dried fruit or breakfast cereals
  • don't have fruit on its own, just have with a meal
  • glug a level teasp Marmite from the jar, mid-morning or afternoon, to help avoid headaches etcwhile your body adapts to fasting
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/09/2019 09:40

Sounds like tricky choices on your trip, filly
but you are doing well to avoid the biscuit & muffins during the breaks

As you know, we can eat in 1 minute what takes an hour to work off
and each toffee pud portion sounds delic but probably takes a full gym session to work off

Allow yourself 1 pud and 1 glass per day, so you don't feel deprived at the conference
but try to pile veg / salads on your plate at each meal

If supper is dire again, then even if you end up with salad or eggs twice a day, try to avoid a supper of pud & wine that is not filling for the calorie bomb it is.
Is there somewhere like a Subway on your way back to the hotel, where you could grab a salad with protein ?

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 25/09/2019 09:51

Thanks BCF. I did know that pudding and wine wasn’t really an ideal dinner but the restaurant was closing and there was very very little on the menu that I could eat. Unfortunately I’m in the middle of nowhere (about 45 mins out of Crewe in the countryside)....no shops, small villages, very pretty, no 9.30pm salad options!

But I definitely won’t do that again - and I am quite cross with myself as I could have just gone to bed hungry, or asked for some crackers. I don’t usually eat back exercise calories but I’m hoping that 3 or 4 intense shed sessions in 48 hours will mitigate some of the damage (& counterbalance sitting on my bum all day....!!!).

I’ve got a bunch of religious festivals coming up over the next few weeks which (with one notable exception of a 25 hour no water no food fast!) all involve big family meals and specific foods. It’s going to mean I have to exert proper self control on NFDs and have to do a bunch of b2b FDs to get them all in, but (despite sticky-toffee-pudding-gate) I think I’m in a better head space to deal with that and stay on track (& get to the gym in between too...) than I was a few months ago.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 25/09/2019 10:04

welcome mumm if you are doing a back to back fast you get slightly more each day, so have a read of the OP. My biggest tip for 5:2 is no snacking, (not just on FDs but NFDs) it really does make a huge difference and you soon get out of the habit

filly conference food is tricky, good luck for today!

Mini FD #1, had a skinny vanilla latte after school run, planning a salad and soup for today, but not sure which will be lunch and which will be dinner!

Good luck weds fasters Smile

mummTum · 25/09/2019 10:26

Thanks everyone! More good tips! No back to back fasting and yesterday was a NFD but might do that next week (if means a few more calories!).

So far I’ve had nothing at all, saving calories for lunch and dinner. Feeling better than I did on Monday and actually easier doing at home than at work so optimistic!

aberjenagain · 25/09/2019 12:25

Welcome mumm! For me, the key to fast days is trying to hold out until dinner, and then having a filling protein-and-veg meal, with any carbs kept to a bare minimum.

Sticky toffee pudding sounds lush filly, that would def be hard to resist!

Hope your mini is still going well 43

B2b going fine over here - I am pleasantly surprised! Was ravenous this morning, but a black coffee at work seemed to settle things. Just had miso soup, M&S protein pot and salad leaves, and looking forward to goats cheese and red onion tart with spinach later. A bit more carby than I would usually occur, but I am bored of my usual fd meals. Need to restock the freezer with a few more options (ideally without courgette as I am properly over them now...!)

BloggersBlog · 25/09/2019 16:13

Hi all, especially my fellow b2b fasters! Goodness it's a tough one today - longing for tomorrow Grin
So far 1 coffee 30 cals
mug of 1:1 soup 12 cals
4 small rice cakes with choc 81 cals
Total 123

Think it will be Salmon (300 cals)with loads of veg (50 cals)
Then a hi-lights and another coffee (70)

So 550 I think for the day

BigChocFrenzy · 25/09/2019 16:48

You are doing well, 43, mumm, aber, blogger
Not long until supper, so drink some water and stay focused

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 25/09/2019 17:03

Hang in there blog and all the others (me included!) Not long to go now. Just keep chanting 'I can have it tomorrow' Grin

Just at the swimming pool for ds lesson and everyone around me seems to be getting choc and crisps from the vending machines! Argh.... might go find somewhere else to sit!

BigChocFrenzy · 25/09/2019 17:23

Resist, resist 43 Grin
You can have some tomorrow

OP posts:
mummTum · 25/09/2019 19:49

Thanks for the supportive messages!
I’ve finished for the day and I feel proud of myself! Just come back from netball too which wasn’t as catastrophic as I’d thought. Only regret was missing the snacks and chat afterwards (we do it once a month). I could have stayed and not drunk or eaten anything but I didn’t feel like explaining the fast to them. Maybe I was being silly but just felt it easier to leave them to it!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 25/09/2019 19:54

No I cant bcf as got mini fd #2 but it's fine.... finished on just over 900cals, will have a cuppa later but kitchen closed :-)

Well done mumm sometimes its easier not to have to explain but i guess it depends on who you are explaining to.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/09/2019 22:01

Well done, mumm, 43

You were wise to skip that, mumm
at least until you are an experienced faster and feel confident to just have say a glass of sparkling water with a slice & ice

Good luck tomorrow 43

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 26/09/2019 07:21

Well done to all yesterdays fasters

NFD here as usual today, anyone fasting?

Whattodowithaminute · 26/09/2019 07:46

FD here today who’s joining? When should I weigh-weekly? So tempting to see if the hard work is paying off... I’ve had a good week so far but am out with friends Friday and Saturday this week so that might impact...

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/09/2019 08:22

mini FD here today, aiming for around 900cals as I did yesterday.

what i think bcf's advice is to weigh first thing in the morning after your second FD, good luck!

Whattodowithaminute · 26/09/2019 08:25

Good luck 43 for today and thank you for weighing advice which means I weigh first thing tomorrow!