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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

981 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2019 17:38

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
OohMrDarcy · 28/09/2019 06:58

Morning all

A fraction shy of a pound down this morning and weighing in at 14st 3.4lb which takes total weightloss to 3st 9lb.

How is yours looking 43?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/09/2019 07:41

Morning, that's fantastic mrd 😄

So I've been properly back on it the last few weeks after messing around for ages 😮 and I feel so much better for it and I'm 6lbs down (I haven't weighed for 3 weeks though)

Really looking forward to my meal out with dh later, just wish the weather was less apocalyptic here!! ☔

OohMrDarcy · 28/09/2019 07:45

That is bloody brilliant 43, I know you struggled to stay in the zone for a while so that must feel really good! Congrats!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/09/2019 07:56

It does mrd and I've still 7lb to lose to get me back down to my lowest I've been doing 5:2, but 6lbs is a good start on getting rid of that! Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 28/09/2019 11:24

That's great news, 43
Well done on your SV and to MrD as well

OP posts:
aberjenagain · 28/09/2019 17:43

Fab SVs 43 and mrd, yay!

AutumnRose1 · 29/09/2019 14:54

A week in
I've lost...no weight.

I'll give it another week but sadly I think this method is going to involve just as much annoying counting as any other method.

VanGoghsDog · 29/09/2019 15:52

DP's mate does 5:2 and says he eats as much as he wants on NFDs and still loses.

I suspect he has quite a lot to lose and this won't work forever.

Anyway, it's quite within the band of normal not to lose one week. Also, the day you weigh in relation to the days you fast is important - for this reason some people weigh daily. Personally I can't be doing with the faff of that, I can barely manage weekly, but if I do weigh it tends to be a Wed am, after shower.
Daily weighing can give you useful reference points though, if you can cope with the logistics and also the mental strain of it.

Anyway - worth keeping going for more than a couple of weeks I think.

I do it for the health benefits and the possibility that it means I won't eat the whole world every week.

Cold is more or less better so will probably fast tomorrow. Am making roasted squash and tomato soup today so that might be good for a fast day meal.
Might make some hummous as well.

And I need to make the Christmas chutney soon.

AutumnRose1 · 29/09/2019 17:54

VanGogh thank you.

Yes, I will give it another try but I think perhaps the dream of not counting calories is a bit distant.

I did think FDs were good for me as a "reset* button.

EssentialHummus · 29/09/2019 18:44

Will be fasting tomorrow and possibly Tues - but still no batteries for my scales! Oh dear.

autumn current lack of batteries excepted I weigh after each FD (first thing in the morning, in the same spot) and save the data - the graph is very zigzaggy and there are some plateaus. I did go through one period where it became clear that my NFDs were tripping me up - I was making the most delicious dhals (apparently healthy) but eating such large portions that my weight loss went awry. Just mentioning it in case you are doing something similar - salad dressing, olive oil, avocados, peanut butter and f/f are other obvious culprits/calorie bombs.

Anyway, hope you find a way through.

AutumnRose1 · 29/09/2019 19:32

"salad dressing, olive oil, avocados, peanut butter and f/f are other obvious culprits/calorie bombs"

Ooh, what's f/f? Not a euphemism 😂

VanGoghsDog · 29/09/2019 19:43

Fast food?

My soup is lovely! Five portions for about £2.50.

AutumnRose1 · 29/09/2019 19:47

Oh I don't eat fast food, you mean takeaways?

I'll buy your soup though 😁

AutumnRose1 · 29/09/2019 19:48

PS takeaway thing is not a moral judgment btw
Just affordability!

IceniSky · 29/09/2019 20:40

Not great week fasting but still on same weight as last week. FD tomorrow.

Had my scan. Couldn't see anything bad, so need to keep a record of symptoms.

Anyone know anything about sprained ankles? Doing a marital arts yesterday, twistered my ankle, but carried on as lots of people watching! Been hurting all day but been going about my day. Now its swollen and feels a bit numb. I dont want to have to miss any classes as we have a belt soon and I do it with my daughter. Please tell me it will be better tomorrow!

Whattodowithaminute · 29/09/2019 20:44

icenisky ouch-swelling is likely to be causing the numbness (increased circulating volume of fluid from inflammation causing compression on nerves) Get it properly elevated and ice it as much as possible for the next couple of days-walk on it as little as possible. If that doesn’t improve things you probably need to get to your local walk in centre/GP for a review. Good luck

EssentialHummus · 29/09/2019 20:51

Ooh, what's f/f? Not a euphemism

"full fat", and then I left out the word "milk"... whoops. I like your ideas better!

VanGoghsDog · 29/09/2019 21:08

Ankle - RICE - rest, ice, compression, elevation.

f/f - sorry! Was guessing. I'm not keen on fast food, I far prefer real food but I can be lazy!

Tonight I have had roasted pork belly with smoked paprika, roasted cherry tomatoes, boiled potatoes, steamed broccoli and sprouts. Pork belly is a bit of a treat (cheap too, £2.20 for six strips, so two portions, but could maybe only have two and make it three meals) as dp doesn't like to eat any fat (fussy git) and he's away so I can eat things he won't!
He also wouldn't eat the soup as he doesn't like squash, or tomatoes. He doesn't like aubergine or courgette either. Won't eat my butter as I keep it in a butter dish on the surface and he claims it's "rancid" - thinking about it, he's lucky to be alive!

mummTum · 29/09/2019 22:08

Hope everyone has had a good weekend.

I’ve had a disastrous one eating wise as was away for a family event and consumed a HUGE amount of food. Oops. So no weight loss at all. Will fast tomorrow... Not really looking forward to it!

wallowinwater · 29/09/2019 22:15

F

AutumnRose1 · 29/09/2019 22:46

wallow I'm slightly worried you had a fast day and only had the energy to type one letter....

Hungry. Grr. Will have camomile tea.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/09/2019 23:44

Sorry to hear of your injury, iceni
If you do have a sprain, then you need to rest it until healed, or the injury will often get worse,
or at least recovery will be slower.

A sprain means one of the ligaments has torn
How long until you heal depends on how deep the tear, or if the ligament has completely ruptured.
It may just need a week off, or a severe sprain may need several weeks rest

Look at it tomorrow; if the swelling has gone down, then a week's rest should probably fix it
If not, I suggest you see your GP if possible, just to check it is only sprained; otherwise, at least try to keep yout weight off the foot

I completely tore an ankle ligment last year (tripped on the stairs) and was on crutches for 2-3 weeks,
then needed another month before the doctor said I could build up exercising again on it.

That's good news your cold is better, VanGogh

As you say, those with a lot to lose can often lose well without paying attention to NFDs for the first several weeks.
Also, men usually lose more easily on any diet, because of biology:
higher % muscle mass, different hormonal balance, usually significantly higher TDEE

Autumn Almost all folk lose a fair bit the first week or two - unless they are already well within the healthy BMI range.

However, sts might be just an odd blip,
or maybe your "Normal Eating" is way above what your body burns.
FDs are the "diet days", while NFDs are intended to be roughly "maintenance days", to retain the FD deficit.

For someone with e.g. TDEE 2,000, the 2FDs give a weekly calorie deficit of about 3,000 cals,
so if your average NFD is e.g. 600 over, which is 2,600 cals, then you would have eaten back all the Fd deficit

If you want to check if your normal eating is the issue, then I suggest you use mfp or similar for 1 week only
and check the NFDs against your TDEE, which you calculate via Mosely's TDEE Calc

If you are a fair bit over, then on any diet you choose, you would need to retrain your "normal" to lose.
At least on 5:2 you eat to maintenance on 5 days, instead of having to be hundreds of cals minus every day

OP posts:
bwydda · 30/09/2019 07:47

Checking in for a fd. Planning a soft boiled egg and slow fried peppers, and a miso chicken stir fry later on. Planning b2b with 500 today and 800 tomorrow.

Whattodowithaminute · 30/09/2019 07:58

bwydda checking in with you for a FD today. DH isn’t out this week so I’ve dithered deciding on which days I will do FD this week... will be interesting to see how easy it is to do with him about-I will need much more will power...!
autumn good luck for loss this week
Hope the ankle is feeling a bit easier today iceni

EssentialHummus · 30/09/2019 08:33

Checking in too. Good luck Monday fasters!