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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

981 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2019 17:38

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BigChocFrenzy · 23/09/2019 11:34

Hummus I think we are both getting to the age when we find police officers etc look far too young ! 😱 😂

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 23/09/2019 14:16

I’m back after over a week off the thread and have really missed you all Smile

Huge congrats on your amazing SV MrD!!! I’m so impressed at your losses - onwards! Flowers Hope you’re surviving builders & no loo...it will all be worth it in the end (I hope!)

Welcome Autumn, and congrats on your first FD, and all the other newbies.

43 - well done! And keep going Smile

Hummus: I’m a bit jealous of your bake-judgery!! I’d love to do that (despite the calories....) How’s maintenance going?

Welcome back Sydney - so glad your back is improving...and well done on maintaining your weight despite having to deal with all of that.

Bwydda, how are you getting along?

Iceni - I was so sorry to read your post. Well done on staying focussed despite everything that’s going on, and remember we are here for you if you need some hand-holding Flowers When is the appointment?

BCF, hope you’ve dried off now? Weather is a bit weird in London at the moment - it looks cold but is quite muggy. Really not very nice!

I’m finally over the D&V bug I had last weekend - it was actually quite surprising how long it took to recover, so BCF was right to advise not fasting for a week. Scales still at 9.12 this morning after a fairly social weekend, which feels like a good way to start the week. Sadly I’m now on a train oop North: I’ve got 4 days of beige food and meetings near Crewe...I don’t think I’m going to manage a proper FD this week but will settle for “mindful” eating. I’ve asked for salads (instead of conference sandwiches) at lunchtimes, so if I can avoid hotel pasties at breakfast in favour of poached eggs, and make some good dinner choices I’ll hopefully not gain too much. And I’ve packed my gym kit in the hope of squeezing in a couple of sessions....

AutumnRose1 · 23/09/2019 16:09

I did wake up hungry and that was early!

I hope my body gets used to it.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/09/2019 16:54

AutumnRose Most folk adapt to fasting within 2-3 weeks

What helps on FDs:

  • Start the day with a glass of still / sparkling water and keep drinking
  • fizzy crap, including diet fizz, is nowhere near as good and Mosely says to avoid if possible
  • Try to just have black coffee / espresso for breakfast, then just lunch & dinner, or just dinner
  • No snacking / grazing between meals
  • Base meals on protein & masses of veg, with optionally a small portion of starchy carbs e.g. fish / beef / chicken breast with salad / veg stirfry, or stew packed with veg & beans
  • Avoid breakfast cereals, fruit juice or fruit smoothies
  • Don't eat fruit on its own, only 1 piece with a meal
  • No sugary treats - biscuits, cake etc
  • Have a level teasp Marmite mid-morning and / or mid-afternoon, to avoid headaches or feeling weak Even if you hate it, glug it down like medicine

Welcome back, filly

< guiltily wipes rain drips off thread floor >
Yep, my early dentist appointment was in the rain, which set the mood
but sun returned afterwards about 11am and it's been very pleasant since

I'm glad you are fully recovered now and that you gave your tum the time to recover

Good move to ask for salads instead of sarnies at your conference

Now - to avoid kicking yourself afterwards Grin:

  • plan scrambled / boiled / poached eggs for breakfast, no pastries
  • eat those salads for lunch, no picking at the sarnies
  • have a sensible dinner, no junk Also:
  • decide whether you will have one glass of wine at lunch or at dinner
  • don't be tempted by any of the biscuits, muffins etc during the conference breaks
OP posts:
Mynxie · 23/09/2019 17:51

Please can I join you?

Started a week ago, FD Mon and Thurs. I find it hard to stop eating once I start so am findin it easier to just have one meal of 500 calories at about 6pm

I lost 2lb in my first week but I’m trying to eat really sensibly on my NF days. Is it better to try and eat low calorie meals at all times or should I cut myself a little slack?

Any advice gratefully received!

IceniSky · 23/09/2019 18:05

Thanks @Fillybuster. My scan is Thursday and I'm very nervous about what it may be. However, I've found some other threads with a fair few posters going through the similar. I keep thinking I'll be the unlucky one!

FD today. Around 480 I think. Quorn mince Keema and brown rice. Didn't finish it as I felt full.

Have stopped sugar in my tea on NFDs as I now find it too sweet! And finding I'm no longer hungry all the time.

Whattodowithaminute · 23/09/2019 18:56

First FD complete today 505; have been lucky that I could be at home today so made a big batch of ribollita soup (healthier version!) which was lunch and a Thai beef salad for dinner. Kept off the snacks all day and DH out tonight so no wine temptation...
Just read through the full thread and great to see people’s stories, motivations and progress-a lovely community and support!

AutumnRose1 · 23/09/2019 20:03

Hello all, so many of us here!

Filly, I feel for you on the conference food.

OP, why is Marmite good? I take a vitamin B supplement so if it's that then hopefully those will help me.

EssentialHummus · 23/09/2019 21:12

Well done what, ice.

Welcome back filly - well done on that forward planning for your upcoming week, sounds brilliant. I'd love someone to present me with a ready-made salad each day for lunch, yummy! And glad you're finally over that D&V.

Good luck for Thurs ice, everything crossed for you.

Welcome myn! Is it better to try and eat low calorie meals at all times or should I cut myself a little slack?

I wouldn't - I'd eat to TDEE (link up top) because otherwise you'll use up all your willpower on NFDs! I've lost 2.5 stone doing this and my NFDs include treats in moderation and some unhealthy meals (as well as plenty of more balanced meals). It keeps me going and keeps me motivated.

FD here. A brisk walk this morning in the sunshine. Coffee for breakfast, then soup in the cafe for lunch (200 cals), then a giant tuna salad with a boiled egg for dinner. And another coffee. Hoping to make it a b2b tomorrow.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/09/2019 21:53

Glad you are feeling better filly and hope you manage to get some other colour than beige good. Oh and surely Crewe is the Midlands and not the north Wink

Welcome minx and good first week loss

Good luck for the scan ice and great nsv of sugar free tea!

Well done whatto

Nfd today and I've managed to bank 550cals towards my night out on Saturday, going bed with a slightly rumbly belly but I'll live! Nfd tomorrow then debating whether to do fd weds and fri or mini fds weds-thurs-fr?? Hmmmm.....

Wise words from essential, don't restrict yourself too much or you'll be more likely to give in....

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/09/2019 21:54

I really should check my grammar and spelling! Good = food, obvs 😄

BigChocFrenzy · 23/09/2019 22:14

Welcome, @Mynxie 🙂
and well done on your SV & your first week

Many folk find it easier just to have supper on FD and that system works well for them

The 5 NFDs are supposed to be "maintenance days", when you can relax and eat normally, not diet days,
So, eat normal food, not diet food

5:2 can work with any kind of meal preferences - normal British / traditional ethnic / low carb / Paleo / vegan / .....

Try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, not on their own
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/09/2019 22:30

mynxie Most 5:2ers can lose weight without counting NFD calories, but if you prefer a calorie guideline, then TDEE is a rough average to aim for over the 5 days:
Mosely's TDEE Calc
He says that exercisers should calculate with one activity level lower than they think

Well done on an excellent 1st FD, WhatToDo

Well done too on your FDs, Iceni, Hummus
and on your sugar habit NSV, Iceni

Either system would work this week, 43
So whatever suits you and your schedule best

Autumn Marmite replenishes salt & also minerals that can be low while your body adapts to fasting
A low salt level can often cause headaches or weakness, for newbie fasters (or newbie low carbers)

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 24/09/2019 09:04

Morning all

checking in for Tuesday FD here. Got chicken casserole in the slow cooker for my meal today. Who else is fasting?

Welcome newbies, keep posting - there is loads of support here!

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 09:27

Good luck on your FD, MrD

A very foggy morning here, pea-souper over the Rhine
At least it's dry, so I'll have my usual walk, just without admiring the scenery Grin

OP posts:
aberjenagain · 24/09/2019 10:47

FD here too. Am debating doing b2b this week. I’ve never done it before, but don’t really like doing FDs with only 1 NFD in between, and def need to get a final gelato in on Friday!

Good luck today mrd

Welcome Autumn, mynxie and others whose names I can’t find because I’m on my phone (sorry!!)

Glad you’re feeling better filly, and good luck maintaining your healthy habits this week. I am also taking stock of bcf’s wise words as work travels are my nemesis. Clients often forget to feed us so I’ve developed a terrible ‘fill up while I can’ approach...

EssentialHummus · 24/09/2019 12:43

I’m with you, mrd and aber, going ahead with a b2b. Just coffee so far, planning a veg stew for lunch and salad for dinner.

bwydda · 24/09/2019 15:16

Hi all- hope every ones having a good fd/ nfd.

I'm just checking in, haven't fasted yet this week, and struggling to fit it in because I'm working at home which makes it harder (little will power) but I WILL fast tomorrow and maybe Thursday. No, definitely Thursday.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 16:01

Good luck, aber, bwydda, Hummus

aber See how you feel tomorrow
If you have 500 cals today, then you could do 800 tomorrow for a b2b - you can have those extra cals on FD2 as you start already fasted

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 24/09/2019 16:43

Kitchen closed on around 515 today, happy with that.

How has everyone else's FDs gone?

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 17:42

Well done, MrD Another FD nailed down efficiently

OP posts:
aberjenagain · 24/09/2019 17:44

Well done mrd

Finished on 531 here, and going to attempt b2b tomorrow - thanks for the advice bcf!

Hope your fd is going well hummus and good luck for tomorrow bwydda Smile

Mynxie · 24/09/2019 17:59

Thanks all, managed fine yesterday on 500 all in one meal. Your advice is invaluable as I’ve never attempted this eating plan before.

Today I had porridge for breakfast with half milk/half water, a sprinkle of seeds and some blueberries. Home made soup at 12 ish and one fishcake at 2.30. About to eat some prawn risotto though I’m not feeling hungry.

Chocolate has always been my downfall but I seem to be ok without it at the moment (though there is some in the fridge which may call to me later) I’m also trying to drink more water than I usually do.

I have the added motivation of my sons wedding next year and I really would love to get down to under 10 st by then

Hope everyone else has had a good day today too.

BloggersBlog · 24/09/2019 19:26

Not sure what I finished on but i think it was about 600 -

3 coffees 75
1 choc hi-lights 40
cocopop bar 85
215 grams salmon 300?
stir fry 100?

Planning on B2B and doing tomorrow so I can have 600 per day! Well done everyone that did it today Smile

EssentialHummus · 24/09/2019 19:29

Well done mrd, blog, mynx. Just wrapping up here with a decaff coffee. Stew for lunch, salad for dinner, a few coffees. Annoyingly the scales are out of batteries so I won't be able to weigh in tomorrow morning - my lovely graph will be missing data! Oh well.

Good luck tmrw blog and bwydda.

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