5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Welcome moonlight!

Good luck Tuesday fasters!

Just had veggie soup for lunch. It was delicious. Small chicken and rice and veg dinner planned

Enjoy bap day aber !

Need to up the water now

That sounds fine, moonlight
Your FDs on that TDEE would give you a big deficit, so you might find you lose quite quickly for at least the first several weeks.
On NFDs, go up to 2600 if you feel hungry, but if you don't, then stop eating.

Main tip: No snacking / grazing between meals

Eat meals, nothing between
and if you want a treat, then have it as par of an NFD meal.

Even "healthy snacks" like fruit keep insulin raised and can hinder weight loss

Big Choc that's a really helpful tip. I will certainly look at filling up properly at mealtimes and no snacking in between.

Fd done on 620 - a little on the high side but it’ll do

bcf breakfast baps (bacon/sausage/veggie) are provided foc, and sourced from local deli - they are top notch.

I’m the same emcla. I’ve had 4 glasses today, which is an improvement, but I need to double that.

Had another good day today. I haven’t been hungry at all.

Totm is approaching. Must try. Or to lost it with the kids. DH works away and getting three of them out the door in the morning on route to work is stressful at the best of times!

Did some meal prep this evening, so that should help to get us through the rest of the week.

Those breakfast naps sound delicious aber!

Well done, aber, Maz
Now drink a glass of water !

Moonlight FYI - This is the summary I often post of the science behind Mosely's No snacking:

Why we shouldn't snack

Mosely and most other fasting experts recommend no snacking between meals

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, to increase profits.
They also increased waistlines.

Even "healthy" snacks - like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, have any treats - lattes, alcohol, crisps, biscuits, even fruit - as part of a meal.

Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 3-4 hrs away from a meal.

Snacks are ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - but this applies to only a few in the West

Snacking has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution

• almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day with snacks is now insulin-dominant (graph 2) instead of fasting-dominant (graph 1), see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

To optimise your progress on this WOE, try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals,
• have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, , not on their own
• lots of water & veg every day
• cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)

Can someone please explain for me the 'twin cycle hypothesis' in a few sentences? How can it reverse my diabetes?

Thank you everyone for your support.

I’m actually doing the 24hr fast on the 21st November. I wasn’t fast today but I will do a mini fast tomorrow.

Hyooga

Prof. Taylor (Newcastle Uni) Twin Cycle Hypothesis explains the cause of type 2 diabetes and predicted that diet could entirely reverse T2

Too much fat within liver and pancreas prevents normal insulin action and prevents normal insulin secretion.

Both defects are reversible by substantial weight loss via a sharp reduction in food intake.

Individuals have different levels of tolerance of fat within liver and pancreas. Some people can tolerate a BMI of 40+, whereas others - especially of S. Asian origin - cannot tolerate a BMI of 22+ and need a BMI of 19.

Only when a person has more fat than their personal fat threshold does T2 diabetes develop.
After they lose weight and go below this threshold, T2 will disappear.

This is why weight gain is such a risk factor for the condition, particularly if that weight is carried around the stomach region.
However, there are some unfortunate people who accumulate fat in the liver and pancreas, despite being a healthy weight.

Prof Taylor's human trials used a specially formulated 8-week v low cal diet composed of 600 cals shakes and 200 cals non-starchy veg, so total 800 cals daily.
He has since done large-scale trials, with NHS support.

To reverse T2, Mosely developed the BSD based on this, with Prof Taylor's approval.
5:2 is for ordinary weight loss; the BSD is for rapid loss and to reverse T2

Really helpful explanation thank you. So the rate of weight loss matters it seems 🙅

I would really like an idiot's guide to how to do this in a manageable way. i understand the basic concept I think. Please give me a step by step doable approach to this. I really need to lose weight.. 4 stones to be precise.

hyooga What matters is getting rid of excess fat within the liver and pancreas

However, Taylor's research suggests that his high-nutrient type of VLCD - which Mosely later developed into the low carb BSD / Fast800- is more effective at reversing T2 than a conventional diet like WW

This is probably because of the benefits of regular fasting - which include autophagy, i.e. replacing damaged cells - and also because of the strict high-nutrient, low carb content

Note:
Taylor has since found that although most people who haven't had T2 for long were able to reverse it with his VLCD,
the success rate for reversing longterm T2 was considerably lower

Sunset If you mean 5:2, check out the "How to start" section of the OP

Or do you mean the BSD / Fast800 for rapid loss and T2 reversal ? - I can give a summary of that too, if you want

Disclaimer: I wrote this post this morning, clearly completely failed to hit send...and then got whacked with a monster first day back at work! Spent the whole day basically playing whack-a-mole with one issue after another and only just realised, post my HIIT class and then a heavy weights session, and dinner (430) that I hadn’t actually posted. Doh!! So apologies for not replying to anything from today

Back from the long weekend with DH (which was completely brilliant) and checking for a much needed FD.

3lbs up this morning but that’s not really a surprise, given some pretty fancy dinners and proper breakfasts too. Almost no snacking, I’m pleased to report, but quite a bit of wine and a fairly high sugar intake given the local cuisine. Should be able to shift it fairly quickly (I hope!).

Aber - it was easier to get away with dh when the dcs were smaller: they seemed less bothered, we had a nanny and the gps had more energy to look after them at weekends! When they were properly little we even managed a whole week skiing - twice!!! These days it’s much harder as we don’t really get much time with them outside the weekends, and their lives are more complicated so it’s harder to get away. Anyway, it was lovely to have some time to reconnect....and we didn’t spend any of our time away talking about the dcs (which is a different type of SV!)

Congrats on your SC MrD - great to see those numbers continue to drop! And wow...you have really cracked those veggies, haven’t you?!

BCF, it’s chucking it down in London today...grey, cold and wet. I need a cafe like yours to run away to for the afternoon! Do you have a fixed plan about when you will completely wind down working, or just continue as you are for as long as it suits?

Welcome back Maz - sounds like you know what you’re doing so that turnaround starts here And well done on an excellent start - that’s a real achievement.

Hummus, I totally love JM! Shred is my favourite and it’s amazing how quickly you start noticing the difference both in how you look and (more importantly) how you feel. These days I mostly use level 2 or 3 when I’m away for work for a few days and can’t get to my regular gym classes: it’s super satisfying when you realise that something that was really tough on day 1 feels so much more manageable on day 5. Once 20 mins starts feeling easier, on days when you have a little more time, I recommend adding in one of the “10 minute” sessions (various instructors - like 10 minute abs, or 10 minute boxercise)or “blast off” (check out “blast off belly fat”) for an extra kicker. But maybe I’m just a glutton for punishment . Enjoy your Westminster visit - dh and I were shown around the House of Commons and Lords by a friend of ours last week on the day Parliament closed for the election....it was crazy busy and quite odd seeing everyone clearing their desks and leaving with pot plants etc! I was absolutely

Hope you’re feeling better emcla? It’s miserable trying to fast with a cold - sometimes you just have to listen to your body and give it time to recover.

Whattodo - my dh is super supportive but totally doesn’t get what 500 cals actually means. He’s slim and fit, so not a problem for him, but he just can’t quite wrap his head around me not eating (taking tonight as an example) cheese, guacamole (that he made fresh despite me telling him it was a FD), tortilla wraps etc and weighing out 100g cooked rice to go with my veggie chilli when we had dinner this evening. It takes so much extra willpower not to reach for the cheese etc when we are having the same meal but he gets all the “extras”!! I much prefer it when we eat totally separately on my FDs - even if I get slight meal envy because he’s having fish and chips or something, on the whole it’s easier to avoid temptation (subject to nicking one or two chips of course!!).

Right, off to bed and looking forward to catching up on today, tomorrow....in fact looking at the time, it’s nearly tomorrow already...eek!

Morning all

Checking in for a Wednesday FD here... work has been a bit mad so far and seem to be out and about lots Mondays / Tuesdays at the mo making my usual Tuesday FD trickier. Moved to today to simplify.

Congrats on the SV whattodo

Welcome moonlight!

morning everyone, had a hectic weekend that spilled into monday (nothing exciting - just painting the kitchen - it took 6 coats! FFS) anyway, just logged on quickly to say today is FD but period has arrived so might just need a few more calories to get me through today as first day is usually horrid! but will see how I go - if I get a chance I will read back to when I last read (friday) but welcome any newbies, well done on all the SVs and NSVs and good luck to the weds fasting gang

Good luck, MrD, 43

You did 6 coats, 43
You must be knackered - it's the little fiddly bits that are a pain
It'll be armour-plated now, safe against all attack

MrD Do tell us when you nail your milestone
We need a big rousing cheer to warm us all up. WInter is here
I don't care that Nov is officially Autumn; it's freezing - I have to wear earmuffs under my cycle helmet

Don't worry, filly
You know that when you immediately tackle the gain from a short break, instead of letting it accumulate, it soon disappears

I've been winding down work this last year - v pt at only around 15 hours, v flexi, so I choose my hours ad hoc
From 1 Feb, I'll be completely retired 🎺🎺
Even more time for 🏋🏻‍♀️ + 🚵🏼‍♀️ + 🧘🏼‍♀️ = 😂😂

Fully that sounds like a lovely day out. I would love a nose around there. I’m much better thanks. No weight loss this week. Up a pound. That’s ok. I’m back at it. NFD here.

Don't worry, emcla That's probably just a blip
Weight varies naturally by a couple of lb during the week, even at different times of the day

If you feel fit now and can focus for a few weeks, then you should see the overall trend going downwards

Thanks bigchoc. I fit into the clothes for the weekend. The Bridget Jones pants can come out if need be. 😆. I have a few days to go and might do a few sub tdee days Thursday and Friday. Also I had breakfast this morning to move things along. I rarely have breakfast now.

Checking in for a Monday FD here - lovely and sunny in London but very cold! I think I am giving up on the black coffee - I just cannot get to grips with it at all and would rather take the calorie hit on cups of tea. I know that eating back exercise calories on FDs is a no-no, but I am active enough on these days not to worry about 15 calories vs 2 for a cup! I've added some flavoured green teabags to the shopping list - cherry & cinnamon, and salted caramel - so hopefully I'll get on better with those.

Prawn linguine ready meal for this evening with extra veg to bulk it out. Still no booze or crisps this month - I don't miss it as much as I thought I would, but I have been sleeping badly (16 month old DS is teething intermittently and being generally awful during the night) and TBH I think I would feel even worse in the mornings having had alcohol the night before, even if it's only one glass of wine.

Fd postponement should say fail as unexpected mince pies in the staff meeting combined with the onslaught of 1st day period pain was just too much to cope with so will try again tomorrow!

Having a fd Tomorrow. Overate today. Annoyed with myself. I find that if I have breakfast it seems to wake up the hunger monster and makes me crave food all day. No more breakfasts.