5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Fortythree, brown food at corporate events is a right pita, last few I attended several of us took salads as it was so yuk (but we were there several days in a row so did that by day 2, harder when it’s one day)

I had a weight in this morning so 9st 2. Very happy with that as I had a weekend away and a week off where there were a few slip ups. I hope to be at 9 next week.

Well done emcla!

NFD here, feeling grotty as had migraine last night-my youngest keeps waking at night (because his feet are uncovered by duvet... ahhh!) and I’m so out of the night waking routine I think it’s really effected me. Will have a slow day. Scales looking positive again this morning-think I might manage sub 12 st by mid next week which would make me super happy as that will be over a stone lost. Fingers crossed and good luck to you all

Water that’s hard. It’s so tempting when you are away. I had a family event last week where there were a lot of older members of the family in attendance. They are all slim and are very little and very slowly. They weren’t drinking lots of coffee. I find it interesting to watch what and how slim people eat. As bigchoc previously posted its 90 percent diet for weight loss. My family dr also said you need very little food to survive just make sure it’s nutritious.

Congrats on the SV emcla!

I did my sneaky post FD weigh in this morning and back to my pre halfterm break weight so hoping to achieve a loss after Fridays FD.

Whatto - its hard when you get used to sleeping through again and then they wake you isn't it! I remember it well.

Good luck, aber
That's useful about b2bs;
finding a system that fits your life is a big part of this WOL

Congratulations on your SV, What, emcla
You are both near fab milestones

You are observant, emcla
Your older family members sound good role models for NFDs

I hope your head feels better soon, what
Lack of sleep is torture and it does tend to produce headaches

You did really well to go for salads at the corporate brown-outs

filly I recommend you concentrate on healthy "normal" eating and give yourself some TLC
So a break from fasting, no FDs until your head feels in the right place.

Instead plenty of water and sleep
Just work on the snacks, alcohol and generally making healthy, sensible choices on NFDs.

Checking in late for a successful FD yesterday- back on track and closed out at 450 - was thinking about a b2b today as tomorrow looks a bit tricky but succumbed to a small slice of posh cake at 11 - I can still come in under 800 but I guess that breaks the “no sweet stuff on FD” rule BCF?! Still need to work on my willpower....”just saw no” was never my strength

Scales said 9.10 this morning, which was a welcome surprise as I had prepared myself for a couple of lbs more. Overall the trajectory is definitely good (I started at 10.5 end of May, but took most of August “off”), and the reassuring part is that the upward blips seem to come back down again more easily each time. It’s slow going, but self-sabotage (aka cake-gate) which clearly downs help!

Thanks MrD, BCF & Aber - last week was utterly pants, but things are slowly improving. I don’t think the problem was snacking, BCF, but not eating enough on NFDs (because I was too exhausted) which left me unable to fast properly and then spiralled into a complete lack of control due to hunger and exhaustion (I obviously wasn’t sleeping much either!). As much as I can see the benefit of sticking to a clear meal plan, something there’s not much you can do when life goes pear shaped! 43 - I guess that was your experience yesterday!?

BCF, absolutely take your point & agree that the gym doesn’t make a difference to weight loss but it does make a huge difference to my frame of mind and ability to stick to this woe. Something about investing time and energy in looking after myself, but also enabling me to feel good in my body and about my body as I see the improvements beyond just the scales. It really matters, and helps my mental state too - and I felt really down and frustrated when I couldn’t get there all week because of the various crises. Plus I also find myself far less likely to reach for chocolate, crisps or alcohol after a proper work out- so instead of using it as permission to eat more, it tends to have the opposite effect and I’m much more mindful.

Anyway, life is somewhat back to normal this week, so trying for better outcomes!

Ah, cross post BCF. You’re spot on that my NFD behaviours are the challenge! Working on that, but happy to fit in a few FDs as well. It’s back to the mindfulness thing: I plan FD meals but historically haven’t done the same for NFDs. Think I may have spotted a solution...

bcf Miso soup is a good shout. I have a small jar of miso paste in my fridge - used it once for a recipe and haven't reached for it since. Now I can put that to good use because I keep forgetting have it like with many other things in my fridge.

Does anyone else have a graveyard of condiments and pastes in their fridge like I do? The most used condiments in my house are ketchup, mayo, mustard and siracha

Well done filly and ohmrdarcy on your FDs and weigh in!

FD for me tomorrow. Anyone else doing FD tomorrow?

Filly I often recommend that people meal plan NFDs the day before too, if they struggle, not only the FDs

No need to calorie count your NFDs, but decide your menu, with plenty of veg & protein
and that you have all the food available
So the next day you don't have to scavenge and get side-tracked.

Arifa I just binned several out of date yoghurts and tired sauces, pesto that I would never fancy
I've now decided that when I try something which is merely OK, not nice, I'll bin it immedately

FD finished for me on 556, skipped breakfast and lunch and had a low-cal ready meal; chicken in mushroom sauce with new potatoes and green beans, added a load of broccoli and some peas to come in around 350, with a banana and cup of tea for afterwards.

I drink around 4-5 cups of tea on FDs, and although I don’t take sugar it still comes in around 20-25 calories per cup. I tried replacing a couple of cups with black coffee today, which was an ... acquired taste . I love the smell of brewing coffee but it’s a bit different drinking it! I don’t think it’ll become a favourite, but for two days a week I can chug it down

B2b day 2 done on 693. And nsv as had (still having...) a crappy day at work, but avoided stress-eating kitchen treats due to looming deadline and boredom-eating due to extreme tediousness of the thing I am working on - both major triggers for snacking for me in the past

Well done Sydney, and congrats on the NSV Aber - not snacking at work is definitely a “win” (cf my failure to resist earlier today!)

B2b completed despite an early morning cake fail, and managed a pump class after work. Counting that I came in around 800 today (Tuna salad for lunch and iceni’s spinach, egg and chickpea curry for supper with no additional carbs) but was only around 500 yesterday so will take that as a win overall. Fingers crossed for scales tomorrow morning....

9.8.8

Gosh! I was so not expecting that.

Had better plan my NFD super carefully, as it’s brown (conference) food for lunch...

Congratulations on a nice surprise SV, filly

Well done on your FDs, filly, sydney, aber

That's a great good habits NSV, aber not resorting to food when stressed or bored
Now you lnow you can do that

Coffee sounds a nice change on FDs, Sydney that will save more cals for food
Inhale the vapour
Or have tea / herbal tea without milk.
It's good you have your hot drinks without sugar

Well done filly great achievement!

Please can I join you all? I've been recommended IF and 5:2 to help reduce inflammation and lose weight. Lots of hospital stays this year, so am happy to try anything to help improve my health. Struggling with all your acronyms but hopefully I will pick those up soon enough. Any tips for a beginner? Thanks

Well done filly, awesome SV

Welcome flibberty

Well done on the fd sydney. You might become a black coffee convert yet. I used to think it was vile but now drink gallons too much of the stuff

Thanks bcf, I feel like yesterday was a true test and confirmation of how far I’ve come. My text nsv target is to maintain healthy habits during the festive period, and stay off the ‘just one more won’t hurt’ slippery slope

Also, v pleased with this morning’s SV - 141.4 lb, which is 3 lb off since last week . 10 st and a healthy bmi are soooo close now

morning all

NFD here and the DC have picked macaroni cheese for dinner tonight - argh. On the good side I'm going smaller portion alongside a salad to give them some balance and I'll stick with soup for lunch!

FD tomorrow and I'm looking forward to my chilli already!

Filly - big well done for that SV!

And the same to you Aber! I can only currently dream of your scale result but I do keep creeping ever closer

Sydney - mint / green tea are also good for FDs if you enjoy them occasionally.

Welcome flibberty
many of us are on this WOE for health benefits
Research indicates that fasting can help inflammation and hence some related ailments

All you need to know is in the OP:
FAQs, abbreviations, then tips & recipes under "How to Start"

Thanks filly and congratulations on the SV. 9 st 10 lb would be amazing for me but not sure how achievable/sustainable it is. First goal is to get back to 10 st 7 which I weighed in March, then head towards 10.

I think the coffee is okay as long as I drink it fairly hot. Once it cooled I really struggled with it although I could drink tea at that temperature. I gave up caffeine for Lent a few years ago and drank a lot of mint/green/Rooibos tea, but I kept over brewing it as I like regular tea quite strong. Must remember it only needs a quick dunk!

Wow Aber that’s amazing - well done on a huge SV! You’re doing so well

Welcome Flibberty - you’ll get amazing advise and support on here. I’ve suffered from arthritis since my early teens and have found that 5:2 helps a lot with inflammation control. Still not how much of that is down to the weight loss, how much to controlled and healthier diet and how much to the actual fasting, but overall I’ve found I need far less medication when on this WOE. Really hope you find the same!

Sydney I’m a hardcore black coffee drinker (have never drunk it any other way!) but I still need to start the day with a cup of tea! If you really don’t like coffee, how about black tea with a slice of lemon, or herbal teas? My favourite is the Pukka teas Vanilla Chai which is a wonderful mid afternoon pick-me-up and leaves my brain convinced I’ve had a sweet treat because it smells so fab. As MrD said mint tea is also good - I tend to reach for that in the evenings after my FD dinner as it stops me wanting to eat more.

Mmmm....macaroni cheese... That’s one of my absolute favourite foods....I’m not sure I would have the willpower for that....good luck!! You’re doing so well and have been a real inspiration to me over the last few months - you’ll be at the next target soooo soon

BCF I know you’ve been telling me to plan my NFDs for ages! What can I say, I’m a slow learner! A bit like MrD I’ve found that I look forward to my FD meals more than my NFDs and it’s definitely because I make more of an effort to cook and plan for those days, even everything we eat is fresh (or home cooked from the freezer) every day.

On that front, a mini NSV to share: I never eat breakfast and frequently wait until I’m super hungry before I eat even on an NFD. Planning ahead for today I realised I was at a conference from 1-6 & have to go out this evening. So I made myself a super healthy brunch before I left the house (a couple of courgette, mint & pea vegan sausages - nicer than they sound! - a boiled egg, half a slice of toast and half a small avocado) even though I wasn’t that hungry. Now at conference and easily ignored biscuits and pasties (yay!) in the break. And I’ve got a fresh tuna steak & asparagus ready in the fridge for an early supper before I go out for a PTA drink thing - fingers crossed that will mean no snacking or eating too much when I get home late!

Good luck to all the Thursday fasters - hope you’re all having a good day

Welcome flibbery. There is great support and advise on here.

Well done aber and filly.

I’m on a fd and had veg soup and a small slice of bead at lunchtime. Not eating again until 1900. Salad and low cal homemade pizza. Had some marmite as a bit of a headache today.

Good luck, emcla
I hope your head is better now

filly Well done on your conference planning NSV
Keep ignoring the conference snacks

Sydney I drink a lot of hibiscus tea and I must admit that I let it stew for stronger flavour

Hello fellow fasters (waves enthusiastically before going to bed!!) 2nd fd of the week for me. Thanks for the lovely welcome by the way I've been reading through the thread and ye are an inspiring bunch.

Work was so busy today that my fd flew didn't have time to think about my rumbling belly but I could have ate the steering wheel on the drive home!! Thankfully I didn't (don't know how to MFP it anyway 🤔) so had the nicest omelette with mushrooms and some side salad - it always amazes me how doing a fast day can make simple food so delicious. Otherwise today was held together with mainly coffee & water and a cuppa soup just to break it up a bit! No exercise classes today but I'm spinning first thing tomorrow morning. Kitchen is officially closed and after my taxi runs with the kids to their activities are done it's bedtime. Anyone else find fds leave them exhausted?? Hope you had had good fds nearly there now